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0:06 welcome everyone to the hamilton luger school and to our annual week celebrating
0:13 our degree program on international law and institutions i'm lee feinstein and it's my pleasure
0:18 to host you today in a conversation with judge camilia bogdan
0:26 the global democratic recession has developed into a global anti-democratic
0:33 wave the threats take many forms a military coup in myanmar
0:39 imprisonment of political opponents and the outlawing of political speech in hong kong but corruption is another
0:46 weapon against democracy uh corruption in romanian health services for example
0:51 is the subject of the oscar-nominated film collective which many of you have may have seen
0:57 already and opposing corruption and kleptocracy is the brave
1:03 and determined work of our guest judge camilla bogdan judge bogdan is a fellow at the
1:10 institute for european studies at the hamilton luger school and
1:15 this interview as i mentioned is part of our annual international law and institutions week i can't think
1:21 of a more appropriate and inspiring guest church bug done welcome thank you very
1:27 much feinstein it's truly an honor and a privilege to to join your community and thank you
1:35 for extending the invitation to to become one of your visiting fellows we're thrilled we're thrilled to have
1:41 you and um let me just give a little bit of additional background for our audience about about the judge um
1:49 uh prior to joining us uh judge bogdan was a reagan facile democracy fellow
1:56 at the national endowment for democracy and that is our partner in bringing judge bogdan here and
2:03 uh we're thrilled and appreciative chuck was also a fellow at the wilson
2:09 center whose uh former president is one of the namesakes of our school congressman lee
2:15 hamilton judge bogdan in march was listed by the american interest
2:21 as one of seven women who inspire us in 2014 she and another judge sentenced
2:30 dan vojkulesku for 10 years in prison for money laundering and corruption and
2:35 to recover 100 million dollars in ill-gotten gains they also convicted
2:40 mariani yanku to 12 years in prison and asset recovery of 200 million dollars uh voy kuyasuku is
2:47 an acknowledged collaborator with the communist era securitat the secret police of romania
2:54 for uh her efforts judge bogdan has been disrobed twice most recently in
3:01 2017 the european court of uh human rights ruled that judge bogdan was unfairly stripped
3:11 of her position because she was not allowed to present a defense we'll talk a little bit later
3:16 on about the sufficiency of that decision uh as well
3:21 in addition uh judge bogdan has been subjected to some intense criticism in the media
3:26 and uh not surprisingly some of this media was owned and controlled by a mr voykuyasko
3:34 again judge bogdan we are really privileged to host you in this country and
3:41 this academic semester at our university thank you again thank you you've said and i'll
3:49 paraphrase that um one should not estimate the role played by corruption
3:55 and kleptocracy in impeding democracy in east in eastern europe so in broad
4:01 terms what is the threat of corruption and organized crime to democracy in this region and and if you'd like also more broadly
4:10 well indeed corruption is one of the most powerful weapons against
4:16 democracy and um the truth is that it tends to be clear
4:21 to become endemic in this parts of the world the standard is that one should be
4:28 corrupt and um that's the institution which have your there which are obliged
4:36 to fight against corruption should be weak and not to will be interested in carrying
4:42 um investigations in order to hold scrapped activities liable and to
4:49 ensure that corruption does not pay so corrupt in countries like romania corruption
4:54 and kleptocracy are the standard corruption became the norm
5:01 so it's expected in our tradition to obtain different services by committing
5:07 corrupt activities and this price is is paid
5:15 by the romanian community by the by the whole society who found in position of
5:21 no not having access to health care services to proper education
5:29 to infrastructure because this is one of my country's main problems and
5:35 the corruption is a burden for the whole entire for the whole romanian society
5:43 so you you you mentioned the case of romania and obviously you've been a champion um
5:50 in the fight against uh corruption there so how does the system work in romania
5:57 maybe beginning with you know what what's the history what are the historical routes that enable uh corruption to operate uh
6:04 the way it does in romania um i also mentioned in my keynote address
6:11 that these patterns are to be found in uh in the consolation
6:18 [Music] the former um intelligence service
6:26 that operated um joining um um and
6:33 whose oligarchs and whose potentials were never deferred to justice
6:40 um when john cesco died they remained with the power of attorney over the accounts that remained in um
6:48 in ocean and they used the the money that were embezzled from the
6:54 romanian society in order to fuel and to find their illegal activities and build
7:03 media empires and invest in locative business in uh in romania this is
7:11 the biggest threat to our financial stability because kleptocracy is um
7:18 perpetrated and the money laundering machine is ongoing because they keep investing
7:25 this money that um that have an illicit origin
7:30 uh the romanian authorities were not were not even increasing to to
7:37 start an investigation to pursue these um oligarchs for remain with um
7:43 accounts with i with highly uh elongation gates and to hold them
7:48 accountable for money now for autonomous money laundering the um derived from embezzlement
7:55 of our budget and uh we have to to understand um the
8:03 the sums that are at stake because um according to financial um investigative
8:09 reporters which were hired by romanian government in 1990s in order to
8:17 recover the sums that remain in offshore accounted disposal of the
8:22 proxies of the secretary regimes estimates to 4.4 billions dollars
8:32 yeah i saw a report in transparency international that estimated uh as much as 16 of gdp
8:40 is lost to corruption in in the country yes and um the corruption yes
8:46 the estimated core uh course of corruption um also is reflected by
8:52 this report drawn by the investigation hired by the romanian
8:59 state budget who established a very strong strategy in order to to recover the um with
9:08 the offshore uh the money of that remaining offshore accounts but um they were not supported by the by
9:14 the romanian authorities so they they were missing evidence they were missing access to evidence
9:20 and therefore they they withdraw from the investigation
9:26 so you have talked in the past about the russian model uh uh of of corruption and money
9:34 laundering it's so complex it's very very hard to follow i i was so impressed at the work
9:40 you did as a judge to track down the uh the sources of outflows the offshoring
9:48 and you've explained that in in some of your writing as well can you explain for us a little bit more
9:54 what the russian model is and how it works uh i've seen the phrase um
10:00 romanian laundromats can you can you uh fill in the blanks for us of course um i quoted in my presentation
10:08 the europa league's report from 2019 which says that um russian brand of corruption
10:16 and um money laundering is the biggest threat to the european
10:22 union's um financial stability um which operates when we talk about
10:30 lounge women's we we understand by laundromats um the the
10:36 use of of the judiciary incorporate afford for the purpose for money laundering purposes for
10:43 instance um you have you might have heard about um the the scandals which affected
10:50 the financial stability caused by by famous banks from europe and there
10:55 are cases um in which we let's say for instance moldova try it tries very hard to recover uh the
11:03 1 billion dollars that was stolen from and that's what that was transferred by
11:10 using the russian brand of corruption to west you see and um in moldova it was
11:16 open an investigation and the judges who put in place those mechanisms were were arrested it never happened in
11:22 romania for instance and there are countries like ladvia estonia while
11:27 um more likely to to commit this money laundering um
11:33 uh who encouraged uh more likely to encourage these money laundering typologies um then bilaterally we understand
11:41 a typology to which monies illicit the process of crime are transferred with
11:48 the help of the judge for instance if you want to transfer some some money in an offshore account
11:56 you want to to spend it anonymously when you're going to work on a vacation um you
12:03 go in front of the judge or you said that um you you create you incorporate a
12:10 structure let's say in delaware and um you pretend to do business with
12:15 the company in romania you provide fake documentation and then you go in front of the judge and
12:20 you pretend that one of the company you control does not pay the emolument of
12:28 the so-called economic activity to the other company who whom you happen to be the beneficial
12:34 owner so the judge operates and helps you by the judicial decision
12:42 to transfer the money from romania to delaware you open a no you usually have
12:48 um an account to open on the company you are entitled to to spend it because we
12:55 have to understand that here in the united states until 2020 um there was not a legislation next
13:04 in active that would have required financial institution to disclose beneficial ownership and um the new
13:11 corporate transparency act uh does not comply with the fact of with a um financial task force
13:19 requirements for instance um notaries or lawyers are not um obliged
13:26 to disclose information about the beneficial owner of that structure
13:31 there are other um laundromats which we could find during in-service
13:37 proceedings if you if you are interested to move from a real estate property
13:44 from a company to your disposal then you you are probably you might be
13:50 interested to um open insolvency presidents against your own company using free
13:57 documentation fake invoice and you um in order to distinguish the so-called
14:04 receivables you um are able to transfer um
14:10 a real estate property which is in in the portfolio of the company you you want background to see background
14:18 in another company you opening and who the beneficial owner you are um
14:25 there are mechanisms they are even more sophisticated mechanisms that requires um
14:33 a very strong attention to the securitization typologies to the money language through
14:40 securitization because those mechanisms
14:45 as a kind of consequence um the financial crisis that took place in the south from 2008
14:52 2009 and which affected our economies and everyone um was um
15:00 was us to to be conscious that money landing is a threat to the global security well um
15:08 when you see this toxic loans let's say a bank wants to um
15:15 get rid of for toxin loan of in an estimated 100 billion euros
15:22 and um in order to clear or to keep them a risk micro judicial risk at a certain level
15:29 so the bank is interesting to move it to a special vehicle for persist structures
15:34 usually they use societal neural kind of a foundation that that provides
15:39 system outside and they are not obliged to disclose suspicion
15:46 transactions reports to our fius financial intelligence uni but you have to ask as a law enforcement
15:53 officer what what's behind what was the purpose or the lack of purpose of a transaction
16:00 from which a receivable in an amount of 100 million euros is sold for five dollars
16:08 there are obvious red flags of money laundering and in order to address these red flags
16:15 as an investment revolution people to ask and verify the documentation what was behind these
16:22 and there are nice developments in um in the asset recovery world because um there was a recent decision
16:29 which is which was recently pronounced in um 2020
16:34 by the um the federal court from of switzerland in which they introduce a victim of
16:40 money landlink and if you have uh this victim of money landing defined
16:46 in our domestic jurisdiction you'll to redress and to ask compensation
16:54 from all the uh disciples that uh did not prevent the um
17:02 the money laundering for instance you could you as a victim of money landing i would
17:08 take her to bring actions against banks against lawyers um against auditors who failed
17:16 the obligation to carry out um customer due to appropriate customer due
17:21 diligence reports the transaction the suspicion transaction reports which will dfi result for the
17:27 law informed enforcement authorities because if we have to bring
17:32 to solve this puzzle by putting all the pieces together and in the mla everyone has a duty
17:39 if it's not um fulfilled and the obligation of verifying the beneficial owner to
17:46 determine who the beneficiary is and to trace the illicit origin of the funds
17:52 if this obligation is not put in place then someone has to be hold accountable
17:59 so it's such a such a complex uh web uh and there seemed to be so many
18:05 different ways of of hiding or appropriating money that that would seem to be
18:11 part of the effectiveness of the whole process because it's so daunting uh to anybody but the most dogged uh uh
18:19 observer uh to um to keep track of this and to and to prevent the abuses
18:26 i wanted to ask also uh in your experience what what role the media uh plays
18:33 in uh corrupt and kleptocratic societies in um making
18:41 an environment um amenable to this kind of appropriation of funds
18:48 in countries like romania holy craps like danville esco have their own media
18:56 empire so they are using the proxies to to discredit and to threaten um
19:03 those who are the legal experts and who try to
19:09 you know establish the climate of legality so it's very easy to carry it um and to
19:16 bring with uh with a series of very very good accusations
19:22 with those threats with um discreditation with it's called lisa
19:29 so it's an ongoing campaign of damaging one's reputation in my case
19:36 this campaign started in 2014. we are now in 2021 and um i'm subject
19:43 um to or to a new expression from the tradition uh at the demand of mr ganguly's proxy
19:51 so they are paying or ngos um different
19:58 type of of person with no legal with no moral on how to say your ethics
20:05 and uh they use in order not not even to to bring this up or
20:12 accusation open to the public but um for instance mr danville sends letter in
20:18 order to discredit my reputation to the western center in the national endowment for democracy to the right to
20:24 foundation so they tried the um it doesn't have anything to do with the
20:30 with the freedom of expression or with um moral standards or radical standards of journalism
20:37 this is not press i mean the press they are controlling in my opinion
20:43 um has no legal credibility and on the other hand they are financing
20:49 with these illegal gains so um they themselves are subject to
20:54 money laundering accusation if the prosecutors were to open an investigation
20:59 they would be able to track um the origin of the funding of the
21:06 this local press or in romania or in other endemic
21:13 corrupt environment this investigations are not likely to happen very soon look
21:19 what happened to me i lost my position and i shall visit once again probably by the end of
21:26 summer it's another it's another manifestation of um of the impact on
21:34 democratic institutions of corruption is is the media capture uh as our friends at the
21:39 center on international media assistants describe it and as you have described it here in very
21:45 personal terms well um i want to talk a little bit now about how europe
21:54 has responded and why don't we talk first about the adequacy of
22:00 the um opinion issued by the european court of human rights in strasbourg um uh
22:07 regarding your case um you know they they they pointed to the fact that uh you
22:13 were denied an opportunity to uh appeal um which was positive but in
22:19 some ways um uh as we were discussing earlier uh their decision fell far short can you
22:27 say a bit more about that i was um tremendously disappointed by um
22:34 by my decision the camera bogdan vs romania because the euro i had the impression
22:40 that the european um court of human rights did not comprehend what was at stake
22:46 i um first in 2017 i was expelled from the romanian judiciary for
22:53 lecturing anti-corruption in a program sponsored by the world bank
23:00 i was accused of conflict of interest i was accused of being incompatible everyone in my
23:07 country is refraining from for from becoming
23:13 lectures in anti-corruption programs because the european courts of human
23:18 rights failed to respond whether it is legal and it's an obligation
23:26 to be more specific to disseminate our best practices as
23:32 experts in the anti-corruption field the european course of human rights did not address it
23:38 although i have demonstrated that um my right to affair trial
23:45 in its most significative aspect the the lack of judicial security
23:53 was infringed what happened i was sanctioned for um
23:59 on a disciplinary office which was not prohibited by the law it's not nowhere
24:05 nowhere in the world you should be um a crime to teach anti-corruption
24:12 and um let's say if i would have been in a conflict of interest or
24:17 if um i would have been um incompatible to teach anti-corruption in romania
24:23 we have an institution which is established in accordance with the jungkook
24:29 prohibitions by mean the united nations convention against uh corruption
24:34 against corruption which was um transfer which was ratified by here by romania in 2004 and this
24:40 institution is the agency of integrity all the agents of integrity issue reports
24:47 in which they analyze the so-called conflict of interest and the incompatibility the so-called
24:54 called incompatibility they they found now not not any
24:59 sign of conflict of interest or an incompatibility so um this report is still in the civil
25:07 circuit in romania because this is the competent authority who should decide
25:13 if a judge if a public official is subject to um to a quotation conflict of
25:20 interest or a situation of incompatibility in my case the national agency of integrity this
25:28 institution established in accordance with article 789 of
25:33 the hong kong convention against corruption states i was not incompatible so i asked the
25:40 european courts of human rights if there is not if if it cannot assess a violation of
25:45 the uh security of the um
25:50 violation of the fair trial by the lack of ensuring the judicial security the security of
25:56 that report of the uh which was uh delivered by the institution that was
26:03 competent to us to address this so the european courts of human rights did
26:09 not did not even mention um national agency of integrity
26:14 in um in in camellia but gun versus romania i tried to deliver um my case to the
26:20 grand chambers unfortunately my lawyer did not see that as a uh gram problem and um the european
26:28 courts of human rights mentioned even if i received all the documentation by course because if my my lawyer did not want it
26:36 to ask this question i had to be um to to ask and to to ask the
26:43 the grand chamber to address this because it's a general it's a matter of general
26:48 importance the right of a judge to teach to disseminate these best practices and
26:54 not to be the disqualification of a judge so don't intervene for very
27:00 severe acquisition and not for teaching anti-corruption so the european cause of human rights
27:05 refused to analyze this i'm i'm that affected and in addition
27:11 the european courts of human rights did not find any infringements of my right to pray
27:16 privacy well they mentioned that i only was in my first case i only was suspended
27:23 for nine months or a full comprehension of full enforcement
27:29 of the rule of law principles says that a judge should not be disturbed
27:34 and if if if a judge should be removed from office it should be it that should happen for
27:40 very very severe accusation or in my case i remain without
27:45 any financial remedies my pal my salaries were not paid my i was not entitled to social
27:53 security um and to health care providers services
27:59 my colleagues of course who saw that i disqualified for teaching anti-corruption not only that they are referring uh they
28:07 refrain themselves to intervene as experts and to help the other colleagues
28:12 um understand their best practices and share them their achievements but they are afraid
28:19 of bringing cases corruption cases and initiated corruption investigating
28:25 investigations again against these kleptocrats because they said they saw the consequences so they don't
28:31 want to lose their jobs it's such a good point uh judge about how
28:37 the the inadequacy of the decision as you describe it in your case has had a chilling effect more broadly
28:43 in the country and probably uh beyond as well so so um let if we can talk a little bit
28:50 about the european union now as well so um not only in your case but just more
28:56 broadly in terms of anti-corruption efforts how would you evaluate uh the
29:03 job the european union is doing in dealing with corruption in romania and you know hungary and
29:10 other places in within the european union space
29:15 um in my opinion the use response
29:22 to this challenge is very weak let us to be more specific it's
29:29 it does not exist um i saw no measures of and european union has
29:37 this power to apply this um injunctions order against collector price
29:43 they'll try to copy your global magnitsky x uh legislation so um
29:50 each the eu has the power has the weapons to encourage to be very active
29:57 in the fight against kleptocracy it would be very easy to to issue a racing quarter against a
30:03 kleptocrats essence in a country like romania and
30:09 determine the who is on his favor and um can become some financial
30:16 investigation to see where the money are diverted that would be the main tool if you want to be
30:21 proactive the euro has also the the chance to evaluate the efficiency of its own mechanism
30:29 in romania for instance the money laundry or the self-loving which is the money long
30:35 been carried by the same person who committed the predicate offense from which the
30:40 proceeds of crime are generated is no longer a crime
30:47 so this obviously um affects the youth financial
30:53 stability eu is not eager to analyze if
31:00 domestic legislations are compliant with eu um
31:06 legislation in rome uh for instance in romania it it's now possible to commit drug
31:14 trafficking skinning corruption other organized crime activities
31:19 uh and to number your own money you have to buy a house or a property
31:25 or um other real estate and yacht or fancy car this is money laundering
31:31 because you use your own presence of crime so in romania it's not it's not no because
31:36 this is not considered to be a money laundering operation romani for instance is a constant
31:42 violation of the eu and the global regimes against money landing which requires that one should be able
31:49 to follow and to investigate money laundering was an autonomous offense what does it mean for instance if you find something um
31:56 if you find someone with 1 million euro cash in his possession
32:02 you are not of um international requirements um don't oblige law enforcement to open
32:09 an investigation to verify where this money come from it's enough and you you you should be
32:16 encouraged to use circumstantial evidence in order to prove money laundering is an autonomous offence and send someone to
32:23 try only for committed money lounging without establishing the exact crime
32:28 and without having him convicted for um that crime as well for instance to be
32:35 more specific in romania it's possible now to open an investigation for the
32:41 um investment for the money laundering of the funds which were embezzled by our
32:47 executed proxies and who remain in position in the position in
32:52 the hands of only guys like mr danville even if the embezzlement is affected by
32:58 statue of limitation you don't have it here in the united states but in our countries it's possible it's
33:03 no longer possible to pursue an offense after a certain time
33:09 yeah but you can open an investigation for an autonomous money landing even if the predicate offense
33:15 is affected by statewide limitations why because this money i kept being reinverted
33:22 in the legal economy so they are still using these funds each time mr dunphy buy something where
33:28 each time the base is lawyer with the process of crime this is money laundering
33:35 so we're we're coming up towards the end of our our time but i i wanted to um talk a little bit about
33:41 the work you're doing now you're working on a paper uh outlining some
33:46 recommendations um for the united states and
33:51 and europe to work together uh to uh be more effective
33:58 and uh have more focus on the question of um corruption anti-corruption and
34:04 fighting money laundering can you give us a preview of some of the recommendations you were considering
34:11 of course there is a general recommendation i um i looked um [Music] at fostering efficacy of international
34:18 organizations such as world bank or international monetary fund which
34:23 have the duty to evaluate the efficacy
34:29 of upholding the rule of law by domestic legislation by domestic legislators who has the duty
34:37 to um ratify and to assure that uh the yunkak the the united nation against
34:46 uh corruption our um [Music] uh transport are ratified and uh are
34:52 enforced in uh in our countries so um for upholding the rule of law of
34:58 course the world bank we could always only uh try to to enhance the world bank
35:06 curricula um in my opinion uh there are um in
35:13 fair democracy like romania it's um in order to compensate the victims of corruption
35:18 for living in such an endless corrupt environment um once encouraged to to take a look at
35:24 the civil remedies prohibited by um prescribed by the uncut convention against corruption
35:31 uh where we can also find remedies um in order to encourage investors and uh protect their
35:38 investments and make countries like romania very attractive form
35:44 for for foreign aids and foreign investment um i also raise awareness about the fact
35:51 that money landing is a threat to international security and i find
35:57 it development for nato to um expand its mandate
36:03 in tackling in also tackling creptocracy i encourage the civil society to
36:09 um bring case in in the attention of state department because we have uh several mechanisms in europe but we
36:16 saw that they are lacking any efficiency in order to um and ask the state department
36:22 to list these properties of um kleptocrats and to freeze them under the
36:29 global magnitsky act because corruption is a violation of the human
36:35 inspiration of human rights uh people in uh country affected by
36:41 who live in an endemic environment i don't enjoy this distance to proper
36:48 education to proper healthcare to to proper infrastructure
36:53 and that lowers the our equality of chances in um in this global universe
37:02 so i encourage the message i want to send is that fighting economic crime is
37:08 a shared responsibility and um we don't always have the power to
37:15 address it correctly in from the domestic jurisdiction but that's why they would we should
37:22 consider adopting this transnational model and uh to refer to the global prohibition um
37:30 um division against corruption and against money laundry i
37:35 and of guess the the biden administration is considering some kind of a democracy meeting
37:40 and uh a component of that conversation could well address some of the questions that
37:46 you're talking about the uh the technical uh
37:51 partner of the romanian union should be on the biden's administration agenda it's a it's a top
37:56 priority because this is the main challenge to
38:02 to romania's financial security and romania became um a hub
38:09 for money laundering purposes
38:14 so uh in in wrapping up i first i just want to thank you for uh
38:21 doing such an excellent job in explaining the great complexity
38:29 of how money laundering works uh and how the the system of corruption
38:35 works and and the impact it has on uh the kinds of services
38:42 that a democracy is supposed to provide uh and on on basic um human rights uh in countries
38:49 um you you wrote um recently um that um
38:57 the fight for democracy in some ways has only just begun and you do it from a
39:03 perspective of uh someone who's lived in a society where the the the transition from a
39:09 communist society is 30 years in the past so
39:14 are you discouraged or uh what's your do you have any uh signs of positive
39:20 signs that you can point to to give us optimism about the ability to uh
39:25 to rein in this kind of corruption and to improve the rule of law in places like romania or elsewhere
39:33 well um in countries like romania and we saw that there were severe
39:39 threats to democratic orders in other parts of the world
39:45 um one should never forget the duty of not taking what we have
39:52 for granted of course i i give my own my optimism but in order to be successful um in the
39:59 fight against corruption you should eradicate the uh the level of impunity
40:05 invest in education invest in training in training um in training law enforcement authorities
40:12 invest in adopting and usually issuing political um
40:18 agenda because the lack of political will is the main barrier to to overcome
40:25 in in the fight against corruption in romania is nothing more simple
40:30 for for the romanian government to hire some specialized attorneys in the asset recovery and ask
40:36 to repatriate those money remain or embezzle or proceed of corruption sent
40:43 all over the world and it's a whole network that cooperates
40:49 as well as probably better than um our prosecutors would would do but
40:56 there is obvious a lack of political will to be more specific mr danville cholesterol um has not
41:03 yet we to the romanian state state budget not
41:10 even that 100 million euros that he stole by him fraudulently
41:15 private i privatized the institute of food and research not to mention the funds that he embezzled and he
41:23 transferred to uh to his own benefits from press and commercial my diamond tv
41:30 well we've been talking about the threats to democracy in your home country and in in central
41:37 and eastern europe but um no country including uh this one um is immune from threats to democracy and
41:44 we have our own challenges and as you said none of us should take what we have for granted and
41:50 we're all i speak i'm sure for everyone watching tremendously inspired by your fortitude
41:57 by your courage by your determination by your professionalism a deep knowledge uh in an effort to
42:03 prevent this particular type of threat to democracy so judge bogdan thank you so much uh for
42:09 joining us thank you again we're excited to have you as a fellow for the rest of this
42:14 semester we look forward to your work and we wish you all the best thank you dean
42:20 strange it's really a privilege to be here thank you

Description of the video:

0:00 science at purdue university northwest he is the co-author of american foreign policy towards the
0:06 colonel's greece um with naovi um and the author of constructing neoliberalism economic transformation
0:13 in anglo-american democracies um he is also the co-editor and book review editor of the journal of political and
0:20 military sociology so with no more further ado from me um i'll let naovi and jonathan take
0:28 uh take the stage over thank you frank i'm going to lead off
0:34 and so the question is going to be if i can get our screen shared
0:46 whatever yeah everyone see our title page all right yeah that's good
0:54 okay so thanks frank and thanks to the institute for european
0:59 studies and to all of you uh for the invitation and for joining us today
1:04 uh i'm going to lead off giving you an introduction and then kind of give you the first half of the presentation and then naobi will
1:10 will take over from there uh for those of you probably most of you are aware but just in case there's
1:16 anyone here who isn't aware of kind of the background historical background to what our topic is on the 21st of april 1967 the military
1:23 coup took place in greece it overthrew the democratically elected government there that regime would last until 1974 and
1:31 it's important for lots of reasons not just for its own historical interests but also because the events of that period have really
1:36 deeply affected both greek politics and society but also the relationship between greece and the united states it's something that
1:43 uh believe it or not all these years later over 50 years later is still very much in people's minds when we talk about the
1:50 united states and relations with greece when we look at that period the widely
1:56 accepted view uh certainly until very recently has been that both in greece and and
2:03 elsewhere including the united states has been that the united states instigated the coup of 1967.
2:08 the idea being that it did so primarily to head off what was seen as a likely victory by the
2:14 center left by the papandreos in 1967 or if it didn't instigate the coup at
2:19 least it supported it during those seven years and ensured that it continued in power
2:26 as two greek political leads put it in personal interviews that nova conducted one said we know that the coup in greece
2:32 was launched with the help of the americans and we know that without u.s assistance the coup would not have been successful
2:39 as i said the dictatorship happened for u.s political interests and another said the dictatorship was
2:44 100 american there was nothing greek about it well
2:50 our work and the subject of our book is that frank mentioned is to use primarily us government
2:56 sources documentary sources primarily from the state department the embassy in athens the white house and to a lesser extent the cia
3:04 to assess u.s involvement first in the actual coup itself and then to also analyze the ways in
3:11 which the united states went about forming its policy towards the regime thereafter
3:16 so it's both kind of a question of the genesis of the coup and also how the united states shaped its foreign policy and what was
3:22 its foreign policy going forward from that point and so in this talk we're going to discuss some of our key findings
3:28 and point to the ways in which u.s policy towards greece and in fact the greek regime's reactions
3:34 back to the united states are actually a lot more nuanced than conventional wisdom has traditionally had it i'm going to begin with
3:40 u.s attitudes towards the coup itself both before it occurred and then the in the initial u.s reaction
3:46 to it put simply what we argue is that first of all the united states discouraged any
3:52 coup throughout the 1960s uh there were lots of rumors swirling that aku was imminent there were lots of people even proposing coups in the
3:59 united states we have found consistently sent the message that this was not a good idea and we'll talk a little bit about that today
4:05 secondly it was caught off guard and was surprised by the coup that did happen in 1967 it if it thought aku was going to happen
4:11 it didn't think it was going to be that particular coup from those particular military leaders
4:17 initially it took a the united states took a cool and aloof approach those are actually the words of the united states
4:23 policymakers towards that regime but then it did settle into an accommodation with the regime and uh and
4:30 it nearly will pick up on that where basically uh the united states essentially um provided the
4:35 you know the necessary political military support that the regime needed so i'll start with the earlier period and then the yogi's going to talk about
4:42 the longer term development of u.s policy but also very interestingly the the way
4:47 that the kernels themselves the colonels as the the coup plotters the coup makers were known uh
4:53 the way they actually influenced or they actually exercised a lot of agency in
4:58 pressuring the us in the opposite direction to adopt policies that were favorable to them
5:04 i'll start with the attitudes of the us towards the coup itself at various points throughout the 1960s
5:12 we found through our work uh political elites of all political stripes with the exception of
5:18 the far left with the exception of the communists would regularly visit the embassy there's lots of records
5:24 of elites from as i said all parts of the political spectrum with the exception of communists visiting the u.s
5:29 embassy in athens to do a variety of things to warn the united states about a possible coup
5:35 some people to gauge u.s reaction to their ideas about you know maybe we should have a coup and what would you
5:41 you know essentially trying to feel out the united states what its view of that would be uh or to actually solicit u.s support
5:48 and say you know would you be in favor of something like this our research has pretty consistently
5:54 shown or has consistently shown that the united states was opposed to any coup in the 1960s and it would
6:00 consistently warn those potential coup plotters against any such efforts a good example of this
6:06 was a state department cable uh to the u.s embassy in athens in 1963 which State Department cable 1963
6:12 hopefully you can see on the screen that discouraged and warned against any deviation from democracy the background to this
6:19 was that the former army chief of staff khan the monkeys had actually come to the embassy and kind of laid out a potential coup plot
6:27 and tried to gauge u.s reaction and when that was reported back to washington the state department
6:32 replied we agree with your analysis that there is no justification for the type of action car demarcus proposes we concur
6:39 that it jeopardizes much of what has been accomplished in greece's economic as well as military advancement
6:44 such a quote solution would be regarded as a blemish on greece's good name particularly here in the united states
6:51 in view of our long involvement and long enlarged investment in greece we could not stand idly by and witness the
6:57 creation of a latin american type of totalitarian government in greece nor do we want a return to the metric
7:03 south kind of tyranny we are therefore unalterably opposed to such a quote solution
7:09 in greece and in the book and if we had time if you'd like to talk about more in q a we can talk more about
7:15 this uh this was a pretty consistent approach throughout the entire 1960s and
7:20 uh in fact was repeated directly uh to a number of coup well a number of
7:26 political figures actually not the compliers themselves but the number of figures in the days even leading up to the coup as the rumors
7:32 really got intense in the early part of 1967 he was consistently warning uh we don't want to move in this direction this is a
7:38 bad idea for for lots of reasons so then what was in what was the united
7:44 states reaction to the coup once it did happen because despite these warnings a coup did take place on the
7:49 21st of april 1967 installing a regime that as i said would last for seven years
7:55 so this brings us to the key question of what was the u.s policy once the regime was in place
8:02 well first when the coup happened the u.s embassy seems to have been caught by surprise
8:08 first that the coup happened at all and secondly that it did not come from
8:14 the source that they most expected throughout the 1960s american policy makers ambassador and others are kind of
8:20 handicapping who the most likely crew plotters would be and the one that seemed most likely was the king
8:27 uh and or at least the king and the generals but certainly not from a group of mid-ranking army officers that the
8:32 coup actually came from the result was that on the 21st of april
8:38 the united states really found itself scrambling to understand who had launched it in the first place and to formulate a quick response to it
8:46 and so to give you an example of this that day the near east desk of the state department sent a message to the State Department memo 1963
8:52 to the secretary of state dean rusk about what they knew and you can see from this memo that they
8:59 had quite a bit of uncertainty as to actually what was going on and in fact we're even gleaning some of their
9:04 information from radio reports so they report to the secretary of state shortly after midnight this morning a
9:10 military coup seized power in athens arrested the prime minister and various party leaders including george and
9:15 andreas papandreou and then announced over the athens radio that the army had taken control of the country skip down a
9:22 little bit according to the us embassy athens the coup appears to have been staged by miller middle and lower grade
9:29 officers who presented effect complete to the king and the military high command the king's position is still somewhat
9:35 ambiguous although he reportedly will swear in the new government he may be under duress and reportedly
9:41 his aid to comp has been seized although later released a clear indication of the king's position should be obtained following a
9:47 meeting scheduled for this afternoon 8 pm ethan's time between the king and ambassador phillips howard
9:52 according to the athens radio a new government will be sworn in late this afternoon consisting of up to the president of the following persons and
9:57 that goes on to list who it understands from the radio report will be the
10:03 the new cabinet this notion that the u.s was actually
10:08 surprised by the coup was actually corroborated about a decade later in an internal cia report that has been
10:15 declassified we can talk more about this most of caa doctrines remain classified but in one cia commentary that's
10:21 unclassified um an analyst reported again in in what then was a secret internal
10:28 document it was an intelligence failure which hurt the cia's pride but which was also the result of the
10:34 effective conspiratorial methods of a small secure cabal
10:41 so having been surprised by the coup u.s officials had no policy options ready and had to
10:48 figure out pretty quickly how they were going to respond to what was essentially a fetal complete the us's
10:54 initial reaction i think can best be characterized as tentative and cautious an initial wait and see
11:00 approach due to the nature of greek relations on many levels especially the us military presence there
11:07 the united states felt that it had to very quickly arrive at some kind of a subtle policy towards the regime
11:13 but in the short run the us ambassador phillips talbot pursued a policy of what he called coolness and aloofness
11:19 towards the colonel the towards the colonels where he would maintain contact and embassy officials would maintain contact
11:25 at the working as opposed to the official level so essentially behind the scenes meetings
11:30 see what was going on but withholding any kind of official recognition or official sanction of the of a positive sanction of the new regime
11:39 at the same time however the most important early response by the u.s to indicate its disapproval of the coup was
11:45 that it suspended military assistance to greece as most of you probably know the united states had been
11:51 greece's most important source of military assistance throughout the whole post-war period with the military relationship really
11:57 being the the key aspect of the u.s greek alliance what we found and we think this speaks
12:05 to again the surprise and the lack of support or lack of instigation
12:11 on the part of the united states what we found is that the new regime's leaders were actually quite frustrated and
12:16 bitter about this and they would repeatedly express their dismay that their supposed friends were punishing them for
12:23 trying as they put it to save greece from communism which we talk about in the book as well
12:28 is a threat that the united states really about it by the mid to late 1960s didn't take very seriously anyway
12:34 uh there's analysis of how the right is constantly trying to convince the united states if there's an
12:39 imminent communist threat the united states really doesn't buy it internally many cables we've seen
12:45 from athens to washington report the distress and the anger of regime officials that the united states
12:50 did not support them or their actions uh and as i've kind of indicated these this bitter reaction by the new regime
12:56 to u.s criticism and military aid suspension we think is some of the strongest evidence that the colonels acted without us consent
13:03 uh and really were off on their own so for example on the 23rd of june uh
13:09 two months after the coup uh u.s defense officials met with the deputy chief of the hellenic
13:15 national defense staff to discuss the suspension of military aid the the map
13:20 program the military assistance program degrees and the general's reaction was really pretty typical General Polilogopolos
13:26 of that of senior greek regime officials to the united states and i'll just read the underlying
13:31 sections there but much longer document general paglio logopolos while personally amiable
13:37 expressed his extreme and increased bitterness at the united states which he said quote i will always love
13:43 in my heart but i cannot understand the policy it is following speaking quote as a friend he made the following points
13:52 since the 21st of april the u.s has gone out of its way to offend greece without regard to the map the military
13:58 assistance program itself the u.s has seemed to search for ways to quote punish us
14:04 u.s personnel have failed to demonstrate even normal courtesies to the greek military as an example the recently arrived army
14:10 attache the uss had made no effort to call on him and they met only by chance in a quarter
14:16 of the greek pentagon u.s officials seem to studiously avoid normal working visits to senior greek
14:22 officials and that except for the chief of juice mag that's the joint u.s military assistance group degrees
14:28 and the defense attache no other american officer had called on him since his appointment quote even for a
14:34 cup of coffee which i would like to think is probably the ultimate insult uh that he could have done is not to me
14:40 for a cup of coffee he stated in substance you obviously do not like us and in such cases we would
14:46 normally declare people who do not like us as persona non-grata and give them 48 hours to leave the
14:51 country as the chief of juice megan general paolo logopolos left the latter's office for a meeting the latter
14:57 repeated that he was speaking as a friend but as a very bitter one
15:02 this reaction is actually pretty typical and it closely matches the reception that ambassador talbot himself got
15:09 a month earlier from the regime's prime minister constantine kolias as talbot reported in may of 67
15:20 and this is part of a much longer uh much longer document that's actually quite fascinating to read
15:26 our exchange started with some rather starchy references by koyas to united states's misunderstanding of greek
15:33 military action to save greece greeks koya said are very sorry and he
15:38 feels great bitterness because his american friends do not seem to realize the great necessity for change
15:45 and continue unfavorable criticism on top of which they have also cut military assistance
15:51 greeks many times have shown they can live on cats and mice rather than betray an ideal in which
15:56 they believe and it goes on after 20 minutes of similar oratory i managed to repost that
16:02 having listened with close attention i was greatly disappointed to realize that the government of greece had
16:08 apparently not understood the major points that the us government had been seeking to make
16:14 in short in the immediate aftermath of the coup the united states adopted a cautious somewhat ambivalent wait and see attitude
16:22 and it tangibly showed its disapproval of the regime by suspending military assistance and keeping its distance publicly from the
16:29 regime however it did continue to communicate with the new regime quietly both on the
16:34 military and defense sides now once it appeared obvious that the colonel's regime had stabilized its
16:41 control and was settling in for the long term a conclusion the united states drew pretty quickly with after 21 april
16:47 the u.s set about crafting a longer-term foreign policy towards the regime and this policy would evolve over the
16:54 years and again this is all detailed much more in the book than we can go into here but it would evolve over the years and go through a number of phases
17:00 going from that initial coolness and aloofness to a modus vivendi with the kernels to
17:07 eventually the reestablishment of military assistance and ending with with what would really be a policy of
17:12 non-interference in domestic greek affairs completely de-linking domestic greek affairs from the military
17:19 relationship throughout the period however the the us's aims in greece were fundamentally
17:26 contradictory and resulted in what we've called a two-pronged approach on the one hand both as a matter of
17:33 principle but also to head off criticism both in the u.s and abroad of its relationship with colonels the u.s would consistently
17:40 argue that the greek regime needed to take concrete steps to move back towards constitutionalism and democracy
17:46 on the other hand the united states consistently held that its own security interests and those of nato
17:53 made greece a strategically important ally in the eastern mediterranean and one that given increased soviet
17:59 activity there in the in the late 60s and early 70s was an ally that they could not afford to essentially
18:05 alienate these two prongs as we've called them were constantly in tension with each
18:10 other throughout the seven years of dictatorship but they did go through varying phases in which one prong came to be emphasized
18:16 more than the other so in the early days of the regime the johnson administration
18:22 seemed to have tried to strike a balance between the two trying to balance the competing
18:27 objection competing objective of democracy with the similarly competing objective
18:33 of trying to keep greece as a loyal active member within nato so for example about a week after the
18:40 coup and you can see how quickly they were trying to formulate this policy the state as the state department issued a die or had an internal document
18:46 uh in which it laid out what it believed to be the basic objectives and methods of u.s policy towards greece
18:52 and it says in summer overall policy must encompass the following points and here i think you can see this
18:57 balancing an avoidance of close us identification with the coup and the new government
19:02 the maintenance of a cool correct cool but correct attitude towards the new government in order
19:08 not to drive it into position of hostility towards the us continuous pressure on the new government to move towards a return to
19:14 constitutional government to the ex to the exertion of our leverage uh seeking adequate treatment of the
19:20 political prisoners and the eventual release of all or most of them to encourage the new government to demonstrate its intent to move towards
19:26 constitutional government by a public announcement of a timetable a timetable for the return to democracy of a new constitution etc
19:33 and to encourage the king to assert his role as the leader of all the greek people this is in reference to the fact the king was
19:39 basically seen as as partisan that he was so closely aligned with allied with the right that it really weakened his
19:46 position given this approach ambassador talbot and others would routinely meet with
19:52 junta officials seeking to promote the us's security interests there but also applying pressure to the regime to
19:59 move in a liberalizing direction and what the documentary record shows is that the united states raised this issue
20:05 of democracy in those early days at most meetings they had with regime leaders now it was often low key and framed in a
20:12 primarily friendly way along the lines of this would be good for you this would be good for us this would be good for everybody
20:18 but the message was fairly consistently delivered however as we all know over time
20:25 it became clear that this approach wasn't working that the suspension of military aid degrees
20:31 and the low-key pressure campaign had completely failed to extract any concessions from the
20:36 regime to move towards democracy and despite the regime's repeated promises uh
20:41 virtually no tangible progress had been made instead what was happening was that the regime was becoming increasingly irritated
20:48 by what it saw as lack of support from the united states and this was the case in particular with
20:53 the suspended military assistance it never ceased to irritate the greek
20:59 regime that the united states was taking so long uh in its review of the military assistance program that
21:05 was the johnson's policy to review military assistance and keep it under review and this lasted for
21:10 for several years irritating the greek regime to no end as a result the greek regime nearby
21:18 talked more about this actually began to seek out other sources of military support primarily from countries in europe like
21:24 france that had maintained much friendlier relations with the new regime it's something we talked
21:29 about briefly in the book uh really something that could use a lot more research and that
21:34 is uh the it has been somewhat researched in the british and in the german archives but the extent to which other countries did
21:41 or did not maintain friendly relations with the united states what we see as a country like france for instance never really broke
21:46 broke relations with the colonels um [Music] interesting side story i guess you might
21:52 say so faced with potentially diminishing influence over the regime over time the
21:58 united states would restore military assistance and would progressively de-link the issue of democratic progress
22:06 from its foreign policy and especially from military support now this de-linking began informally in
22:13 the johnson administration but would eventually become a formal policy of the nixon administration which first came into office in 1969
22:20 and it's here that neil will pick up the story of that de-linking okay thank you jonathan so um
22:27 i'll just begin by saying that the the shift in policy which jonathan described revolved around three
22:33 important propositions um first that greece was a key player
22:39 in the defense of nato against soviet aggression in a very volatile and vulnerable part of the world so this
22:46 was a very important secondly there was the realization that emerged that pressure on the greek
22:52 government to democratize was actually counterproductive and was actually causing the colonels to
22:59 dig in their heels in the name of national sovereignty and pride
23:05 and thirdly that the best course of action was to emphasize the security relationship with greece
23:12 but only to raise the issue of internal reform very gently and
23:18 privately for the stated purpose of improving greece's international image
23:23 primarily within nato as well as within the u.s congress so as jonathan emphasized
23:32 while the democratization and security objectives had been pursued
23:37 more or less in a complementary fashion by the johnson administration we really begin
23:43 to see an important shift under the nixon administration and this is particularly true as the
23:50 influence of henry kissinger came to dominate american foreign policy specifically the
23:57 notion that the internal affairs of other countries were not a foreign policy concern
24:03 of the united states became a guiding principle when formulating
24:08 policy towards greece under kissinger and as it became clear that the colonels
24:15 really had no intention whatsoever of liberalizing the objective of pushing the regime towards democracy
24:22 just receded further into the background and the security importance of greece um
24:29 to the u.s and to the nato alliance came to the fore thus as jonathan has shown while the
24:36 military assistance program was initially linked to constitutional
24:41 progress this policy gave way to progressive separation of the two with the end result being an
24:48 explicitly stated de-linking by the nixon administration
24:53 when it decided to resume the military assistance program and the face of absolutely no progress
25:01 um no evidence of progress on towards democracy so specifically
25:08 in mid 1969 the national security council had been working on a review
25:14 of the map policy towards greece and um it was planning to present
25:22 its recommendations to the president later that year for consideration so kissinger who at the time was serving
25:30 as a national security adviser prepared a memo for the president um
25:36 outlining in great detail um three options regarding the resumption of map
25:43 um the first option yeah all right Nixons Decision
25:50 okay so the first option was um to cut uh to cut off map altogether
25:57 like to cut off the military assistance program altogether the second option was to continue
26:04 shipping non-major items but to withhold major items this was essentially the
26:10 policy that had been pursued under the johnson administration
26:15 and then the third option was to a full resumption of the military assistance program to
26:21 greece kissinger then proceeded in a very long document um we only show a very small uh slice of
26:29 that document here kissinger proceeds to analyze the options and detail and then he gives his formal
26:36 recommendations for option two um that is um you know to continue delivering the
26:44 small items but to withhold the large items stating that perhaps more aid would be
26:50 released in the future um he presents this option to to president nixon and
26:58 um he gives as the document shows um basically three options that nixon is to initial
27:04 either a proof disapprove or initial other and what is um i think rather dramatic
27:12 is that richard nixon decides in one fell swoop to kind of cross out the three
27:17 options and just write in his own handwriting um as you see um on the screen richard
27:24 nixon approves option three in one fell swoop and contrary to the advice of
27:31 the national security council and his own national security adviser
27:36 nixon approves the full resumption of military aid to greece
27:42 with this decision we see a formal and full de-linking of the military
27:48 assistance program from any democratic progress and greece and from this point
27:56 on and it's the following cable from ambassador tosca to the department of state reveals US Policy on Greece
28:02 the us would no longer be concerned with democratic um greek with domestic greek politics
28:10 and i quote here i believe the answer clearly must be for the u.s to take the position that we are for
28:17 democracy everywhere in principle but that essentially democracy and representative
28:23 government are do it yourself propositions we shall have to see singling out greece
28:30 among all the countries of the world as a target for a u.s policy imperative
28:36 that that it returned promptly to representative government
28:41 we should of course privately continue to advise the regime of the common interests of the alliance
28:47 in political normalization we should make clear to our european friends that
28:53 while we of course ardently hope for an early return of representative government in
28:58 greece we cannot accept responsibility for democracy in greece then the chips will fall where
29:05 they will both for the greeks ourselves and the alliance as at present our military aid would
29:13 continue to be related to our priority security interests and we would once and for all make clear
29:19 to all that the us cannot and will not accept responsibility for internal political developments in a
29:26 nato ally particularly particularly one with such an enormously complicated political history
29:34 of achievement and failure in the field of self-government
29:40 this approach then of non-intervention of allowing greece to determine its own
29:47 political future was made even more abundantly clear after a after a hardliner within the regime
29:54 dimitriosis launched a very brutal coup a counter coup
30:00 in november 1973 that overthrew the papadopoulos
30:05 regime um essentially the ioannidiscou returned the country to
30:12 martial law and extinguished any u.s hope that the regime
30:17 would usher in democratic reforms when the counter coup occurs the united
30:23 states is left once again attempting to formulate a policy regarding
30:28 whether or not um the u.s should recognize the ioannidis regime and this happens
30:34 several times during this during this period of time it happens initially with
30:39 with the colonel's food where they're trying to decide whether they should recognize the regime and then it happens again in december of
30:46 1967 when the king launches a counter coup is forced out of the country um into exile
30:53 and again the u.s is trying to decide well what do we do should we recognize the colonels with even though the king
31:00 has been ousted and then thirdly it happens yet again with ioannidis
31:07 um faced with this dilemma the state department makes it very clear
31:13 to the greek ambassador in washington that the u.s will continue its relationship
31:19 with the new regime and here i quote um again we have consistently expressed
31:27 our strong interests and our relations with greece and there has been no change in this attitude the peoples of
31:35 greece in the united states have a shared interest on many levels not the least of which is
31:41 insecurity matters and i i go on our policy toward greece has
31:47 been made quite clear in the past we consider that our relations are between our countries not with any
31:55 particular regime we believe a constitutional base provides the best assurance for
32:01 stability but this is a greek problem not for outsiders to resolve
32:07 we will try not to take positions that will make greece's problems any more difficult
32:15 so to summarize as time passed um and especially with um the you know
32:21 during the time of the nixon administration and with kissinger um as he serves both as national
32:26 security adviser and as secretary of defense the issue of
32:32 democratic reform in greece for its own sake is progressively dropped and by 1973
32:40 we see that there is a full de-linking of the two objectives
32:47 now it's important to note however that this gradual policy shift did not
32:54 happen in a vacuum solely as a result of the decisions and calculations
32:59 of u.s decision makers indeed our archival research has revealed
33:05 that having a view of u.s power that implies a kind of overweening control vis-a-vis a
33:12 relatively impotent greece is actually very flawed
33:17 in fact the documentary evidence shows that the colonel's regime displayed a great deal of agency in its
33:24 relationship with the united states and the book argues that the colonels
33:29 pressured remonstrated complained and even threatened the united states in a way
33:35 designed to serve the regime's own interests thus even as the u.s sought to put pressure
33:42 on the colonel's regime to democratize the colonels themselves were quite active in resisting this pressure
33:50 through pressure tactics of their own the key to this was the regime's
33:56 awareness of greece's geostrategic role as the anchor of nato's south
34:02 eastern flank they knew that the national security role of greece was of
34:07 overriding importance to the united states and as we demonstrate in the book armed
34:14 with this knowledge the greek regime skillful skillfully utilized it to its own
34:19 advantage evidence of this emerged early on when following the king's
34:24 counter coup in december of 1967 [Music]
34:30 papadopoulos sworn and again this is the the the counter to occurs and um the americans are trying
34:36 to figure out a policy as to whether or not they will recognize um uh the regime in in
34:44 the king's absence and papadopoulos at that time um warns that if his government is not
34:51 internationally recognized by january 20th he would interpret this as a de facto
34:59 expulsion of greece from nato recognizing that this posed a problem Papadopoulos Warning
35:05 for u.s security interests ambassador talbot um cables
35:11 washington cables the department of state and he um he says quote
35:19 if the greeks and their offended dignity frustration and impatience should happen to flail out and rupture
35:26 connections with nato the cost to our interests would obviously be heavy
35:32 therefore we will do whatever we can to forestall precipitate greek moves
35:39 another good example surfaced later in 1916
35:44 at the very first meeting papadopoulos has with the new u.s ambassador to athens
35:51 um ambassador henry taska in that meeting papadopoulos sends tosca Papadopoulos to Taska
35:58 a very clear message when he tells him that and i quote greece's role in nato
36:05 and especially its relationship with the us was of utmost importance however greece's friends must
36:13 realize that the greek government will not allow its natal role to be tied
36:18 in any way to the greek internal situation there was absolutely no room for
36:25 compromise on this and if necessary greece would put its defense relationship
36:30 with the us on a bilateral basis
36:36 still a little later referring to a discussion between the two men
36:41 um that is between papadopoulos and ambassador tosca um about map the military assistance
36:48 program taska further reports to the department of state the prime minister replied that
36:55 aid to greece was not a matter of friendship it was the fulfillment of our
37:01 obligations under the alliance and in our own security interests
37:06 he noted that alliances did not necessarily depend upon friendship
37:12 so papadopoulos really begins to assert himself
37:18 and as time progresses making demands upon the us he begins to
37:24 affect u.s policy matters in both small and large ways
37:33 so a good example of this can be seen in the preparations of vice president sparrow agnew's visit
37:41 to greece which was being planned for 1973.
37:46 and originally agnew himself in the department of state intended his
37:52 visit to touch on the subject of liberalization of the regime and this was going to be both
37:58 um privately but also publicly like they were going to mention liberalization publicly while he was
38:06 in um in greece and papadopoulos learns of this and makes it very clear that any public
38:14 statements regarding liberalization would not be tolerated and if such
38:20 um you know if if such statements were being planned the visit should be cancelled
38:26 immediately secondly also um in terms of
38:32 president the vice president's visit it was customary for high-ranking officials of government
38:38 when visiting greece to meet with members of the non-communist democratic opposition
38:44 in addition to meeting with members of government and this was being planned for agnew's visit the regime learns of
38:52 this and objects to this plan as well and then finally also as was customary
39:00 uh u.s embassy reception was being planned for the conclusion of agnew's visit where members of the
39:07 ruling government as well as members of the democratic opposition against this this would have been the non-communist
39:14 democratic opposition were to be invited and no sooner
39:20 um did papadopoulos learn of these plans then a representative from his office
39:27 informs the embassy that members of the government would walk out of any such reception
39:34 should they see members of the opposition there ambassador taska is
39:41 worried about this and he sends the following telegram to the state department and i quote Taskas telegram
39:49 unless the department wishes to reopen this issue with the government of greece the embassy assumes that the us
39:56 reception will not be held it is clear that the government intends to take a rigid position
40:03 that anyone not cooperating with the government of greece even if right-wing and pro-nato is
40:10 unacceptable to play any role in the in connection with the vice president's
40:16 visit so faced with these dilemmas the united
40:21 states promises silence on the issue of democratization
40:26 lets the vice president know that he is not to meet formally with any members of the opposition and
40:34 cancels the reception altogether so as not to offend
40:39 the colonels so it's not to offend the regime in fact exactly one day after
40:45 receipt of uh tasca's message this message that i just quoted from
40:52 secretary of state rogers cables the embassy in athens agreeing that it would be quote unquote
41:00 inappropriate and later the word is revised to impossible for agnew to meet with the
41:07 opposition while on his official official visit to greece
41:13 in short agnew's visit to greece was choreographed in such a way
41:18 that it was completely de-linked from the topic of liberalization all in an effort to appease the greek
41:25 regime as time progressed papadopoulos became
41:31 more and more assertive in his demands and his objections to u.s
41:36 quote-unquote interference for example he bluntly argued that greece would not
41:42 tolerate interference in its domestic affairs he asserted that greece is not and i
41:50 quote a protectorate unquote of the united states
41:55 he argued that congressional interference in the domestic affair affairs of his country was completely
42:03 unacceptable when he was faced with criticism from the us congress he gave a
42:09 barely veiled threat that should the united states cross the line
42:14 of what the colonels felt was acceptable the special position of the u.s in
42:20 greece would be jeopardized he made it clear to u.s government officials that he was
42:27 determined to complete the quote-unquote revolution and his government's mission
42:32 at all costs he went so far as to claim that if
42:39 he could not secure u.s assistance he would quote he quote
42:45 would take whatever other solutions were necessary unquote and finally he led the united
42:53 states to believe and at times openly stated that greece would always look to others for support
43:01 particularly military equipment should the u.s prove unacceptably
43:07 difficult in the book we showed that these and many other similar
43:12 threats did not fall on deaf ears instead american policy makers did their
43:18 best to keep the colonels content for example they maneuvered
43:24 repeatedly behind the scenes to keep greece off of the nato ministerial agenda
43:29 where it was receiving and would have received even more criticism from the
43:35 scandinavian countries fearing that such criticism might compel
43:41 the colonels to withdraw from the alliance as they had done from the council of europe
43:47 as we've shown they the us restored the military assistance program
43:53 in response to growing greek hostility thirdly the department of state
43:59 officials refused to meet with important members of the opposition these were greek political elites with
44:06 whom they had long established relationships when those officials were visiting the united
44:12 states fourthly they disengaged u.s contact with king constantine
44:18 who was exiled in rome and who had been a very close friend of the united states
44:24 government and and um fifthly in athens the u.s embassy kept the greek
44:30 democratic opposition at arm's length so the documentary
44:36 record clearly shows that the united states was very concerned about potentially losing a friendly ally
44:43 in greece and this concern was based on repeated threats
44:49 and complaints by the greek colonels in conclusion the greek regime
44:55 demonstrated a great deal of agency and strategic action and seeking to
45:01 shape u.s policy to its own advantage which as the documentary evidence and our books show
45:07 it successfully accomplished for seven long years so i think we will stop with
45:14 that um if anyone is interested in taking a look at the book um we here is the title
45:22 and we'll stop with that great naovi and jonathan thank you so
45:28 much we're going to open up the floor to questions at this point and uh i
45:33 think um you know we're a monetized group just raise your hand and uh
45:40 um either virtually or physically um and go ahead and ask your question
45:47 and introduce yourself please and ask your question Jonathan Swarts
46:03 uh naomi and jonathan can you hear me yes we can hi there uh first of all i was just
46:09 wonderful and someone who was not a specialist in u.s greek uh
46:14 relations i learned so much so thank you so much for this but one of the things that caught my eye
46:20 as someone who does study u.s foreign policy is the dates of the spring of 1963
46:28 which is i think was the first document that you showed and of course what's
46:34 hanging over the kennedy administration at this time is very much vietnam
46:40 and particularly the fact that there was tremendous turmoil to beginning to take place in the spring and summer of 1963
46:48 and of course culminating with kennedy's authorization of the coup against gm
46:53 and i just wondered why they were taking such a different policy towards
47:00 uh greece at that time when the united states was clearly did not have a problem becoming
47:06 more involved in other what it considered allies and critical to fighting communism you want to take
47:13 governor um that's a great question jonathan that's a really good question i guess i would say that there are there
47:20 i think there are two reasons first of all i think it takes the us is taking a very
47:26 different approach um in europe like in a european country in greece than it is in asia um but
47:34 also and i think most importantly um where as the u.s was concerned about
47:40 communism in greece in the 1940s and in the 1950s as you look through
47:46 these documents over time um you see that there's a shift in um
47:52 the uses orientation towards greece so by like the 1960s when the greek right is
47:58 approaching the u.s embassy i think as jonathan described i mean there the the greek right is
48:03 approaching the u.s embassy and even greek centrists um are approaching the u.s embassy
48:09 but the right especially is making the argument that we are afraid of greek communists we are
48:15 afraid of the communists to our north we believe that um you know that that is a danger that
48:21 that a military coup might help us prevent it's very clear
48:26 in the documents that the the embassy and the state department are saying no the greek left in greece is no longer
48:34 a threat to democracy like they just don't believe that threat exists any longer in greece and so
48:41 whereas the threat may exist in asia i think they feel pretty secure
48:46 that the communists in greece are no longer a threat to greek democracy
48:52 or to the establishment in greece and that i would add there's also
48:58 documents we've seen that talk about how united states foreign policy was really our foreign policy makers were really
49:04 taking the position that whereas greece had been in a very dependent relationship vis-a-vis the u.s right after the second world war and of
49:10 course the united states support for the national side in the greek civil war that by the 1960s it was
49:16 just seen as being part of the natural progression that greece would essentially become much more independent of u.s influence and they didn't
49:21 necessarily see that as a bad thing they thought that was part of the i mean you could see it as paternalistic maybe but it was uh kind of the sense
49:28 that well now they'll be standing on their own two feet and and if people like the popular radios come to power that's
49:33 not the worst thing that could ever happen and because part of the conventional wisdom too is that the united states was so afraid of andreas
49:40 that it was willing to sanction a coup the documents show the united states in fact we even have a document we don't have it on the powerpoint that
49:46 that indicates that the united states thought that even if andreas came into power he could be managed and that was i think the word they used um
49:53 you know he wasn't the threat that he was being made out by the extreme right
49:58 but i agree totally didn't give you i think it's it's kind of a difference between your what they saw as the natural progression of a european country versus what was
50:05 going on in asia i see well good it's a good jonathan
50:11 that you agree with naomi on these people i i would say that yeah right all right and finally uh just just
50:19 not monopolize here but i love this break you have with kissinger and uh the ongoing field of kissinger
50:25 studies which never ends in some sorts at some point maybe you and i should teach a course we can flip a coin about is he
50:31 uh over which way we want to go on that one that would be great thank you jonathan thank you uh
50:40 chris williams has had his hand up and then uh brenda phillips after chris chris go ahead hi um
50:48 thank you very much absolutely fantastic um my my own ph my own thesis was on
50:54 uh george seferis and he was obviously a poet and and a
51:00 diplomat and he was very exercised by these issues and i wondered if anything pertaining to
51:07 him that come out in your research
51:13 trying to think i can't say that he wasn't mentioned at all i i suspect he was in some of the
51:18 documents because there were some documents that did talk about uh
51:24 you know people in literature and you know the various fine and creative arts and
51:30 the persecution they were facing by the regime uh that was something that the johnson administration was more concerned about
51:35 frankly than the nixon administration was the persecution of of opponents and
51:40 intellectuals um but i don't remember anything specific about societies
51:46 no he was ambassador to to london um and he did write and comment quite a
51:52 lot about this so if i mean you know it's uh it's kind of
51:57 uh secondary to what you're doing which is fantastic but if if you do come across anything i'd be really grateful
52:04 yeah we we have done um chris we have done some research with the um archives in london um
52:12 so we've collected the material but we have not begun to analyze it um yeah for so if we do come across
52:19 it we will definitely get back to you on that thank you that would be great and it may be that i
52:25 can you know contribute to something on that in in collaboration with with my institution fantastic thank you
52:33 thank you i agree this was a great presentation and i apologize i have to leave in three
52:39 minutes for a phone call i have to take um but i'm the dean of liberal arts and sciences here at iu southbound so we get
52:44 naob all the time which is cool my question is that i've done a lot of
52:49 work in archives can you talk about some of the challenges you had with working with archives
52:55 missing documents and getting access to documents i'm just really curious about that thank you oh yeah why don't you talk a little bit
53:02 about it um so so the our biggest challenge was um
53:07 um getting access to cia documents and those are still under lock and key and so we've seen
53:13 very few of those but the the one very interesting challenge we had with um state department documents is that um
53:21 after not for some reason after 9 11 many of the documents that had been
53:27 declassified prior to 9 11 were reclassified after 9 11 for some
53:34 reason um and so it was very interesting as we were going through the archival evidence to
53:41 see that documents had been pulled um after the events of 9 11. and
53:47 um we have not gone back to request those but um that's in the plans as well and i
53:52 think that's also in the public record that there was a a call of documents uh in the post 911
53:57 period by the bush administration i i think if you look online there is reference to that because we did see not an overwhelming
54:04 number but of course you always you wonder exactly what's going on we didn't see anything like that
54:10 in the british documents but of course by the time we were doing the british archives work it was ten years later so i don't
54:15 know what the situation there have been great thank you so much jorgo and then
54:22 vassalicki neobi and jonathan thank you the question is not directly related to Discussion
54:30 the focus of your research but i was wondering whether you came across any information
54:36 you came across in the archive uh any information regarding the role of the
54:42 u.s greek orthodox actual diocese with junta we know that in 1968
54:48 archbishop yakovos decides to hold the clergy in late
54:54 congress in athens and largely this has been interpreted as a gesture that legitimized the regime
55:03 and if i remember correctly iaco was on the contrary claimed that
55:09 that was a strategic move in many ways
55:14 to somehow [Music] start the conversation about democratization so i was wondering
55:21 whether the archive has any or you have come across any any relevant information
55:27 we there were documents about yakivos's visit and occasionally occupost would visit
55:32 the state department and and you know discuss his views it does seem i don't know i'm trying to
55:40 this it wasn't something of course like i said you're going to be focused on but trying to remember exactly how the documents wait it seems to my
55:45 recollection and i'd have to look at them again uh there what there did seem to be a shift over time in yakima's
55:51 own view where he was much more reluctant to criticize the colonels and ends up of course being very critical of them later they're
55:58 mentioned in the documents it didn't seem that his views or the views of the church were necessarily determinative of
56:03 anything it's not as if they their main concern frankly was congress
56:09 and so to the extent that the church or greek americans were exerting influence on congress uh to
56:15 raise the greek issue they were much more concerned about that i don't know do you think that's accurate yes i would agree with that i i think
56:22 that i don't remember though anything those the documents related to yakovas
56:30 were not the ones i've seen were not very interesting they were not very
56:35 insightful they um i think i would have really been interested in that
56:41 had you know but there was nothing there that was very insightful it was v it was all very vague more effectively
56:47 more factual reporting his views weren't really reported very extensively
56:52 so it was not a very it was not very vow it was not we did not gather valuable
56:57 information from those documents vasalicky hello um i wanted to ask if
57:18 um the the periodization framework that you
57:24 adopted in interpreting um the the reaction to the to the
57:31 dictatorship may not in some way limit the type of questions you're
57:37 asking because you already by the time we're looking at 1967 we're talking about
57:44 the total militarization of greek politics where a particular cadres in the
57:50 military have already established careers in what was already since the 50s a situation where
57:57 uh usaid degrees with relation to the truman doctrine
58:03 and martial martial plan etc was entirely geared towards the military
58:11 and was also geared towards specific changes in the parliamentary regime in greece to but to ex
58:16 facilitate exact um the uh the the dominance of right wing
58:23 so uh we're already looking at a personnel that was entirely uh militarized and the political life
58:30 was entirely uh skewed towards military solutions to things so
58:35 um it seems to me that maybe a longer view
58:42 of u.s greek diplomatic and political relationship with emphasis on military
58:47 the militarization of life would actually produce maybe different questions
58:52 that's all i like to say that's an it's a great point i mean the um the documents we kind of
58:59 started our analysis in the book really begins with the 60s although the documents we collected really we
59:04 started in the 50s and what's interesting and again it may just be some of the selection issue that you're
59:10 talking about and when you're dealing with so many documents you know you sometimes do wonder if you're getting the you know a good selection a
59:17 representative selection one of the interesting things that we it's off our topic so we
59:23 didn't write on was in the 1950s the big issue was the eventual termination of economic assistance degrees
59:28 uh because the united states is again going in this pattern of saying uh that the the huge economic aid that
59:34 was being given under the mars plan in the early 1950s was going to change uh the united states feeling like it
59:40 just couldn't support that and couldn't afford it over time and a great deal of concern on the part
59:46 of the greek government as to losing that you know losing that support but that's that's a great point you raise i mean it
59:51 it is part of it there is no nice starting point it is part of a longer
59:57 pattern for sure yeah i would agree with that if i may um
1:00:04 ask one follow-up question it was my understanding and um i believe that john kawfis also makes
1:00:11 this point in his book another university of indiana system scholar who dealt with uh the u.s greek relationship under you
1:00:19 know political terms of political instability and uh john kaufus argues that um
1:00:25 already the the type of aid that the us was providing was military in nature and was already geared towards
1:00:33 strengthening the military dimension of the greek state so it would have produced this
1:00:38 consequences in any case that's all i have to okay yeah i mean
1:00:44 in the sense of absolutely the aid did shift from from being both military and economic in
1:00:51 nature to being military military by the 90s the economic assistance has largely ended by
1:00:57 that point yep it's absolutely right thank you thank you gabriel
1:01:04 yeah hi um so i i was wondering as you guys are talking um
1:01:10 do you have any information about why the u.s government and the state department why did they believe those uh uh when the uh
1:01:18 generals are claiming that they were gonna get aid from someone else i mean this is cold war where would you
1:01:24 know they would have gone to russia china was not a player at that time so i'm curious if there's anything
1:01:30 in the archives to kind of give you a glimpse into why did they even buy that kind of line
1:01:36 of argument um yeah there there was they were negotiating the colonels were
1:01:41 negotiating there were discussions between them and the french them and the british
1:01:46 um for the purchase of military weapons airplanes etc and so it wasn't just an
1:01:54 empty thread i mean they were actually exploring other options
1:01:59 um during this time and in fact they were again i'd have to go back and look at it
1:02:06 specifically but they were close to an agreement with the french to buy
1:02:11 fighter jets um and the french as i kind of mentioned right at the top um the french and the british and the
1:02:18 germans had not broken with the regime and ice broken probably not the right word we're
1:02:23 not as cool towards the regime as the united states was in the early days um and in fact none of them in fact
1:02:29 we've come across documents where the the french explicitly said from day one our relations are
1:02:34 they took the exit they took the exact line that the colonels wanted them to take which is our relations are not with any particular regime
1:02:40 diplomatic relations are between the french republic and the atlantic well that point kingdom of greece and our relations will continue
1:02:46 regardless of what the regime is and so it was not an empty threat that they would um and of course you also have to
1:02:52 remember too that in this period you know france was outside the military arm of nato so um
1:02:58 you know it it was kind of a semi-autonomous player that greece was able to appeal to and it came quite close in the
1:03:06 end the deal didn't go through because largely because the united states kind of stepped in and prevented it from
1:03:12 happening but it was pretty close all right but you're right it wouldn't
1:03:17 have been the soviets [Music]
1:03:24 so if i can follow up on that because that was uh the line of thinking that i was pursuing also um
1:03:30 so it was it principally economics or did they want to feel like they would lose uh influence
1:03:36 within the country if uh if greece left kind of the military uh tutelage of the united
1:03:43 states um um can you can you uh elucidate the thinking anymore they're based on the
1:03:49 documents um frank can you re i don't quite understand the question was your
1:03:54 question so what is what what are the basic reasons why the u.s i mean it's obvious that greece is bluffing
1:04:00 a certain degree you know they're not going to go outside of nato um or outside of uh the
1:04:06 uh the quote-unquote west um but you know what what uh what were
1:04:12 the u.s reasons for for um not allowing them to buy uh military uh armaments from the french
1:04:19 for instance um you know i mean obviously if they were going to purchase from uh from the soviet union
1:04:26 which would be the irony of all ironies um they wouldn't allow that and would have ample reason not to but
1:04:32 for from a country that's uh that's an ally um um
1:04:39 i guess i guess what i would say is um you know if if during this time um the
1:04:45 the the french are not really seen as a very close ally of the united
1:04:52 states they're the troublemakers within nato to go you know de gaulle pulls um france
1:04:57 out of out of um nato they're not a very reliable ally it's not an echo the united states is
1:05:05 not at all concerned about it's not economic so they're not at all concerned about
1:05:10 um losing and losing the sales britain interestingly is i mean britain
1:05:17 if you look at the british documents um britain is much more concerned about
1:05:22 sort of its economic relationship with greece and um you know sales of
1:05:27 military weapons um america is not it really has to do with
1:05:33 um just having influence over the colonels within the nato alliance
1:05:38 we can't overstate how important um the the the greek state appeared to
1:05:46 the united states at this time at this period of time during the cold war
1:05:52 um when greece was you know was really seen as the
1:05:59 most important country in the mediterranean to the nato defense to the nato alliance
1:06:07 and the colonels realize this and they're able to play this up um to their own
1:06:13 advantage really so you know we may in retrospect we may
1:06:18 say well they it was a bluff they were bluffing but i don't think the americans at that
1:06:23 time were seeing it as a bluff at all and it's kind of amazing when you go back through the documents
1:06:29 and and you see that the embassy is really concerned um that the colonels may withdraw from
1:06:36 nato if they get angry they may walk out um and they you know america is really
1:06:41 working vociferously behind the scenes to keep um greece off of the nato
1:06:49 agenda as much as possible because they know they will be criticized primarily by the scandinavian countries
1:06:55 and if that happens they think the colonels are crazy enough literally that they may just walk out of the
1:07:02 alliance altogether and they do not want this to happen and they're willing to go talk to
1:07:08 extremes to keep them within the alliance and i would add to that that we also
1:07:15 have to remember that at this time as opposed to today the united states has pretty significant military installations in greece so it
1:07:21 doesn't want to lose those uh and also in the same period the united states is even talking about home porting
1:07:26 its mediterranean fleet fleeting greece so the united states is is really trying to maintain its
1:07:31 presence there tangibly on the ground and then as the other was saying in terms of this fear
1:07:36 that somehow there might be a pull out of greece from the nato alliance even if
1:07:42 it was just on the french the french way which is to stay in the alliance kind of politically but be outside militarily
1:07:47 they didn't want that of course you know you also have the tito example with the warsaw pact we've done something very similar
1:07:53 uh you know kind of allied with the soviet union but not in the warsaw pact the united states didn't want some kind of neutralist
1:07:59 keto-esque uh result from the kernels and and i'll just add
1:08:04 to that and i don't remember where in the book it is um but but there is there are very long
1:08:10 um you know um cables that are going from the embassy to the state department just listing all
1:08:18 listing military bases listing all kinds of installations that are throughout greece like 30 installations
1:08:26 um and at one point the ambassador says we have 900 acres worth of installations
1:08:31 in this country that are critical to us that are very important to us and we cannot lose to risk them
1:08:36 including he says um you know two floors in the center of athens um that juice mac is using
1:08:44 without having to pay any rent in this prime loca i mean so they're just really concerned
1:08:50 about sue the bay they're concerned about military installations listening facilities
1:08:56 all sorts of um installations throughout greece that they do not want to lose
1:09:03 and it's interesting the ambassador becomes an advocate for the greek regime in in that memo where he like never said he
1:09:08 inventories every single us strap of real estate in greece every military installation and
1:09:14 real estate and every other thing possible and actually then becomes an advocate for the regime in arguing back
1:09:20 to the state department we cannot lose our position here and and i will add to
1:09:26 that and you can also see over time both with ambassador talbot and with ambassador taska where they
1:09:33 begin v you know their their initial relations with the colonels is very is aloof and cold but they both warm up
1:09:40 to them as time goes on because they're being backed up into a corner really by the colonels in some ways and
1:09:47 co-opted and co-opted and co-opted [Music]
1:09:53 great thanks that that really clears clarifies things for me um kelly uh tia leo has a question would
1:10:01 you like to answer ask it kelly
1:10:06 i can read it also it's in the chat she says thank you for a fantastic talk
1:10:12 i wonder whether you have a sense of where and when the conventional quote unquote knowledge
1:10:17 of the us having backed the coup comes from the greek left elsewhere you want to take that one because we've
1:10:24 been talking a lot about that we've just been rethinking that all together and i mean
1:10:29 we could say that part of it i think i mean i think you know um we could say the greek
1:10:35 leftist contributed to that we could say andreas papandreos has contributed to that in my own
1:10:41 interviews i did interviews with greek political elites and military leaders for my first book
1:10:46 um even the right you know members of the conservative right said to me the that the coup was
1:10:54 launched by the americans that so it i think all political elites
1:10:59 sort of have have um contributed to that but in most most recently as john and i
1:11:05 have been thinking about that we also think that the colonels themselves really contributed to that while they
1:11:12 were in office and so they would use every opportunity they could with in in the press you know in the in the in
1:11:19 the controlled press at the time they would use every opportunity they had to
1:11:25 um well uh what to use you know fake news right fake news so
1:11:31 they would um they would stories would be set in such a way that it would that it would appear as if
1:11:38 um the us was really supporting them um and this was contr you know uh
1:11:44 america the both at the embassy but also the state department as they would get reports about the
1:11:49 press and what the colonels you know what the press was saying about visits of um americans to greece or the approach of
1:11:57 um the administration's policy to greece they were just in disbelief at times that thing you
1:12:03 know thinking like oh my goodness we can't believe these guys are reporting the news in this manner that this
1:12:09 is just this is unbelievable but i think all of that contributed has contributed
1:12:15 to this um long-held view that um that america instigated the coup that it
1:12:20 was behind it i mean it's it that you know this very um this view that is not very nuanced
1:12:27 um um and so i think the colonels contributed to it and i think all of all the political leaders of the
1:12:35 right center left contributed to it as well that that's that's a great point and
1:12:41 really interesting point you make about the kernels is i think back to the i've done research on television discourse during
1:12:47 the uh during the hyundai and one of the messages that comes through over and over again
1:12:52 in in the pages of uh radio teleorasi the greek tv guide
1:12:58 is how the hyundai has the blessing of the american government yeah um and and that they're doing the
1:13:05 will in in some way shape or form of of the united states and of course i
1:13:10 would you know just add to that that the united states of course didn't help itself any if it would if it didn't like that it didn't
1:13:15 help itself anybody for example sending agnew on his visit i mean and they knew that i mean in the documents revealed that they knew it was
1:13:22 going to be used as a propaganda ploy by the colonels to say well this is the ultimate seal of approval
1:13:28 on our regime um but they thought it was worth doing anyway or for example whenever there would be a
1:13:35 you know whenever there would be military visits either by u.s military officials or you know when the fleet would uh would
1:13:42 pull into crete you know there would always be big headlines in the papers about how you know that you know the aircraft carrier is
1:13:48 visiting today so um the united states knew that was being used in that way and it didn't sit
1:13:53 well with them they didn't know them but they they did it anyway yeah they contributed to it as well in
1:13:59 in you know unintentionally or inadvertently probably the the visit by agnew was the
1:14:06 most obvious example of that i mean uh it was definitely used as a
1:14:12 propaganda piece by the colonels intentionally and you know agnew tried
1:14:18 to we talked a little a certain amount in the book about it you know agnew tries to
1:14:23 portray it as primarily a personal visit uh given that he's greek american but you know how do you separate out you
1:14:29 know i mean when the vice president united states sitting vice president shows up in greece it's going to be interpreted as some kind of official approval whether
1:14:36 no matter what you say um and it was an official visit it wasn't official
1:14:42 [Music] um any final questions
1:14:50 karen hello thank you so much for your presentation
1:14:55 today i learned a great deal um i am a professor of english at the university of indianapolis
1:15:01 and i'm still new to the politics of the mediterranean region but i have a specific interest in cyprus
1:15:08 and i'm wondering if in your research you encountered any additional information on the us and greek
1:15:15 involvement um with the the crises in the 60s and 70s in cyprus and of course
1:15:21 the 1974 coup
1:15:26 there is a great deal of information on that period in the archives so anyone who is
1:15:33 interested in in studying that i would say um there's a treasure trove of information
1:15:40 it is something that jonathan and i really did not um did not have time to
1:15:46 pursue with the current project um but there's a great deal there
1:15:51 there's a great deal and the same in the national archives in britain i mean especially especially in britain given
1:15:56 its relationship british archives have even more on that topic no there was there was a
1:16:01 lot uh they were they weren't as many of you said because of time and just trying to limit the project we didn't collect most
1:16:07 of those documents personally but we certainly came across thousands of them thousands of pages yeah
1:16:15 okay thank you for that
1:16:21 well great i i want to thank you naovi and jonathan for a stimulating presentation and an even more
1:16:27 stimulating discussion uh thanks so much it was it was a real pleasure to be able to host this event
1:16:32 albeit virtually and to uh to
1:16:38 share from your uh research and your learning thank you thank you very much thank you for
1:16:43 joining us everyone excellent questions thank you thank you thanks thank you very much have a great weekend
1:16:50 everyone bye-bye okay and if you guys can stick around for a minute

Description of the video:

0:00 so thank you everyone for joining us on a very cloudy monday my name is heather doomling i'm the
0:05 assistant director of the institute for european studies and the polish studies center
0:10 and i studied abroad my junior year and i think that studying abroad is such an
0:16 incredible experience it's a life changer for everybody that um we're thrilled to offer this
0:22 workshop for the second time we did this for the first time last year and it's just to give you information on
0:29 programs specifically programs in europe since we are euro but also to let you know about possible
0:36 scholarships and financial aid so we have four speakers today we have amanda roshan rowan who is the assistant
0:43 director of the office for overseas study we have carolyn lance from the college of arts and sciences
0:50 and she's the director of international planning programs and strategic initiatives
0:55 and she's going to talk about the aspire program we also have ochema eskew from the
1:01 office of the vice president for diversity equity and multicultural affairs she is the director of ovpdema overseas
1:09 study and scholarship programs and she will have scholarship and financial aid information for you and
1:16 then we also have jeff here dinks santos from the hutton honors college he's the
1:21 director of iep and undergraduate grants and he will have scholarship information for you as well and i just
1:28 wanted to introduce our director frank hess he is the director of euro and also the academic
1:34 coordinator for the modern greek program so we will open up questions amanda's going
1:40 to have a little bit longer to speak because she has a little bit more to tell you about
1:45 please put questions in chat and we'll try to make sure we get all of those questions answered like i said this program will
1:52 be live streamed and it will be recorded so you can tell your friends about it if they didn't have a chance to watch it today
1:58 so amanda i'll let you take it over sure thanks heather thanks so much for having me
2:03 i'm assuming y'all can hear me okay no internet problems yeah we'll see how the powerpoint works okay first of all
2:09 i'm really glad to see such a terrific turnout um and of course because we're recording
2:14 for facebook as well i think it's understandable to see the title of tonight's event and think like
2:20 whoa study abroad 2021 do you what would you know there's a pandemic going
2:25 on but i think it's just indicative of iu's continual focus on international education and study abroad
2:31 and that's really what the central message of what i'm going to be covering today is yes there is a pandemic happening
2:36 outside but you definitely should consider study abroad for as soon as it's safely possible to
2:42 do it and i hope there are some people on here judging by the chat we've got some people who are ready to get on the plane right away and then
2:48 we've got some people who are planning ahead and all points in between so i think this will be a nice well-rounded conversation
2:53 if you have um any questions for me feel free to put them in the chat and any of the co-presenters are welcome to interrupt
2:59 me as we go along but i've got a presentation to set up for you and of course i'm available for questions after my colleagues present
3:05 two so let me share my screen and there we go
3:13 okay do you see that moving is it working i presume yeah i like it
3:19 okay fantastic so as heather introduced i'm amanda rashawn rawan and i'm the associate director in overseas study i advise our
3:26 advising staff but more importantly i have my own portfolio of programs so i could very well be your advisor based on some of
3:32 those chat locations i look forward to working with you so the purpose of what i want to cover for tonight's presentation
3:39 is really to understand overseas study at iu and notice i didn't put overseas study in capital letters to understand
3:45 my office but really to give you the macro understanding of overseas study or study abroad if you
3:51 will at indiana university and then it'll make more sense for my colleagues who go after me to understand just how many
3:57 opportunities there are for iu students part of that is understanding the program models to help
4:02 you go overseas and the other key component is to think about how study abroad can complement your degree whether
4:09 you're getting ready to study abroad in summer 21 or maybe in the future i certainly couldn't
4:15 go any further without acknowledging what's happening in the world right now but i really want to
4:20 encourage all of you to keep study abroad in your sites because the world will get better
4:26 day by day and so we encourage all students to keep planning ahead keep thinking about studying abroad do
4:32 some goal setting and talk with us and your academic advisors and the departments and we're here for you
4:38 iu hasn't changed and that we love study abroad and we love our students to have international experiences
4:43 what does that look like well for the past 20 years we've been in the top 20 nationally for the number of students
4:50 that we send abroad which is pretty commendable considering we're a large public institution
4:55 as you can see from the pie chart we have a wide variety of programs whether it's short-term programs for
5:01 people who really just can't get away for an academic year we have loads of semester
5:06 participation and really all points in between and so what that means is you can see one of our biggest pride points
5:12 is that we are number three in the nation for the number of students who go abroad for a semester but of course a lot of our students
5:18 choose other length of programs and again you'll hear a variety of those examples from what my colleagues have to
5:24 say and what i'll share in just a moment my six-year-old is also behind me so you're
5:29 probably going to hear a like small little chirping so that's that's just him because this is this is life now all right what i also
5:37 want to help you understand is there are a lot of opportunities to study abroad at iu so my office the
5:43 office of overseas study represents really like about 130 program options
5:48 but when you look at the other iu units the opportunities that my colleagues will talk about in a moment
5:54 we're talking more than 300 opportunities across the entire campus so if you're a student who's studying in
6:01 the college or cali or education or you're a hut and honors student you've got opportunities through my
6:06 office which are open to all students and you've got opportunities unique to what you're studying so again you'll
6:11 find no shortage of opportunities here to support your study abroad endeavors so let's talk a little bit
6:17 about numbers so when you think about how many students it takes to be number five in the nation to study abroad right
6:24 we're talking more than three thousand students that study abroad from indiana university and they do so on programs in 18
6:31 languages including english because i totally respect that not everybody studies foreign language
6:37 and then also in more than 60 countries again we can talk north to south east to west and all points in between
6:45 so what i'd like to help you understand is the model piece of it because this has financial implications
6:51 it helps people understand which term is best for them and what type of experience they're looking for
6:57 so let's jump right in we have administered programs ones that are run through our office
7:02 we have exchange programs ones run through our office and unit base like my colleague carolyn is going to talk about
7:08 in just a moment we have faculty-led programs run through our office and also through units such as ochma and
7:15 jeff and professor hess as well not all of those programs run every year so i do want to make that
7:22 acknowledgement not least of all because we're in a pandemic and then we have what are called co-sponsored program types now
7:28 before i go any further it's helpful to understand that all of the types of programs that i'm
7:33 about to talk about are direct bloomington credit you all the grades come back and count in
7:40 your iu gpa and whether you get an a or an f everything comes back as direct bloomington credit
7:45 so you'll never hear me say the word transfer credit because that means something very different in our world and i think that's just a
7:51 really great example of understanding how integrated all of these study abroad opportunities are
7:56 into the iu undergraduates curriculum i also want to note right now and i'll come back to
8:02 this in a moment is again all the types of programs that i'm describing right now you can use your you can use your
8:09 financial aid package with few exceptions which i'm happy to talk about maybe in the chat later if
8:14 you have some specific examples but as you'll see iu has a system designed to help you use your existing financial aid package
8:21 towards the cost of studying abroad so let's begin and this is where my
8:26 powerpoint froze earlier so let's just fingers crossed and see if it works now the administered program model
8:33 sounds like what it is iu administers the program vis-a-vis staff who are on site to take
8:40 care of students with academics and health safety and security and housing and all of the things to be
8:45 basically a resident director on site so the two examples and again this is not an exhaustive list of
8:52 anything i'm about to show you but just to give you a little teaser for sample programs the two examples that we
8:58 have here are language immersion opportunities so if you have been studying for example
9:04 german or spanish and you really want to take your classes with local students in german or in
9:10 spanish you've been building up to this moment your entire life these are the ideal program models
9:15 for you because it's you the international student really just wedging right in there into the local
9:21 environment and as you can see they are they align well with people in social sciences and
9:26 sciences and humanities but generally a lot of majors can be accommodated and they are ideal for semester and or
9:34 academic year options i also want to acknowledge that for our students who are watching who
9:40 are indiana residents i understand that cost might seem prohibitive to your study abroad dreams
9:47 so when we have students who are cost conscious like many of them are we encourage
9:52 students to look at the program fee sheets to understand the costs so on an administered program
9:58 one of the big differences is that you'll see a resident and a non-resident tuition and we'll come back to that in just a
10:05 little bit next i want to tell you about exchange
10:10 program examples again just picking a smattering of options here so here i've listed programs in france
10:17 italy and england again recognizing that not all study abroad programs require foreign language or foreign
10:24 language immersion but our france and italy options do represent more opportunities for
10:30 students who are keen to enhance their proficiency great direct immersion opportunities
10:36 whether it's living with a homestay taking classes with local students etc but the university of
10:43 kent in canterbury england which is where heather studied abroad of course is a great opportunity to be
10:48 the international student in an english-speaking environment i really like the university
10:54 of kent as a great example for again having a resident and non-resident tuition so it can be more affordable for an
11:01 indiana resident but i also really like this because it's got a depth and breadth of academic
11:06 disciplines that are represented of course it's you the international student studying at a full
11:13 degree english taught institution with departments in physics and philosophy
11:18 and all the things that iu has so you see a lot of alignment and integration into your iu degree
11:25 and that's what my colleague carolyn will also be talking about in a minute when she talks about her unit-based
11:30 exchange program examples as well next i want to talk about the
11:35 faculty-led program examples and again i can't put enough focus on that star that says
11:40 programs may not run every year and so what i mean is iu is not running
11:46 its faculty-led programs in summer 21 because of the uncertainty and the ambiguity
11:51 for the pan because of the pandemic but that doesn't mean we will stop running faculty-led programs rather iu
11:58 faculty are ready we want we want to take students overseas we just need the pandemic to kind of settle down
12:05 a little bit so what i've offered here are some examples of programs that have tended to run in the past
12:11 to give you an idea of how many credits students can earn from the faculty-led
12:16 program the types of credits and whether they fulfill something like gen ed or case if you're in the college
12:22 distribution as well as the professor who typically leads the program as well in case you wanted to follow up with
12:29 that person about future opportunities as the name implies faculty-led programs
12:34 are run by an iu faculty member who has expertise in their particular area and the passion for the topic
12:42 taking iu students as a cohort to the place overseas learning iu classes iu content
12:50 making connections within the iu family if you will and again for students who are in state
12:56 residence you're paying indiana tuition if you're out of state student you pay out of state tuition so again just
13:03 thinking about academic applicability and financial aid and scholarship model as well
13:10 last i wanted to touch on co-sponsored program examples sorry it's dinner time
13:16 at my house i wanted to focus on co-sponsored program examples so i kind of consider this the alphabet
13:23 soup of opportunities what i mean is these are co-sponsored programs run by a study abroad company in the
13:30 case on the screen here you see examples from dis ies or c-i-e-e see what i mean about the
13:36 alphabet soup and this company takes the leadership in terms of on-site management health
13:42 safety and security academics housing all of those things and we partner with them and trust that
13:50 again they are leaders in the in the field of study abroad they are conducting the program overseas but again you're getting
13:56 direct bloomington credit even though you're on dis or is or cie ciee's program the examples
14:03 that i've listed here again just to give you an idea of how many places these are offered
14:08 whether classes are taught in english even if it's a non-english speaking location like copenhagen
14:15 or if there are summer and or semester opportunities as well
14:21 so what i can't stress enough is if you're looking at summer 21 great let's ride along on that journey
14:28 for as long as we can and i can talk more about that in the q a later but if you're thinking ahead here are some
14:34 things to remember again direct bloomington equivalencies on everything that we're talking about
14:39 all of your classes count in your iu gpa and talk to us and your academic advisor if
14:45 you're in need of specific degree requirements overseas for example your general education requirements like
14:51 your arts and humanities social and historical if you're in need of world languages and cultures
14:57 which as a reminder that's the degree requirement that all students no matter what their major is
15:02 can complete by studying abroad for six weeks and earning at least six credits and we
15:08 have a lot of opportunities for that as well and of course you may be able to complete any major or minor
15:14 requirements as well so next i want to introduce funding study abroad because i think it
15:19 helps set up what ochma and jeff will be talking about in just a minute when you think about the the funding
15:27 that a student can take with them to iu let's think about it in terms of like an inverted
15:32 triangle right so at the top your macro funding is your federal funding on the types of programs that i've
15:38 described here you can use your federal financial aid your pell grant your subsidized your unsubsidized loans
15:44 next level down we have our state financial aid yep you can use that towards the cost of the programs that
15:49 i've described here this would be for example your 21st century scholarships
15:55 next we have university grants and scholarships your deans your direct admits your provost
16:00 scholarship anything that's specific to being at iu yep you can use that towards the cost of
16:05 the programs i described and then down here this is my favorite one especially for being at iu
16:11 study abroad specific grants and scholarships and this is what ochma and jeff will be talking about and the
16:17 hud uh the hamilton luger school also has their specific study abroad scholarships you'll just find that there is a lot of
16:24 opportunity to help students finance study abroad so much so that over the past five years
16:30 we found that students have received more in study abroad gift aid that's the money you don't have to pay back
16:36 and they've taken out less in student loans and what that looks like is in 2018 2019
16:43 of the nearly 14 million dollars that students took abroad with them you can see from this chart that the
16:49 vast majority was in terms of gift aid again the money that you don't have to
16:54 pay back so if you've been riding along with me now thinking like
16:59 okay there's a program out there that kind of sounds like where i want to be or what i want to study but i'm still a
17:05 little concerned about the cost i hope these previous slides and what my colleagues will share in just a moment
17:11 can help you understand that iu is a really great place for you to use your financial aid package and obtain additional
17:18 scholarships so what can you do now start researching take a look on our
17:24 website to browse programs if you want to look through where the lens of where can i go
17:30 click on world regions search by world region if you know that you want to study abroad in a summer because that is
17:36 the only time that works well for you click on terms abroad if you know that you want to do an internship
17:41 because you want to get that real world experience start developing those global networks or again because you want to do
17:47 work over the summer maybe not be abroad for a whole semester click on the internships and etc so
17:53 there's the link to our website for you to start looking at the programs and if you are someone who really likes to hear more
17:59 from previous students then take a look at our student blog to hear more from previous students
18:06 or you're welcome to go to study abroad 101 which basically walks through each of
18:12 these concepts that i've described but in greater detail so if you're thinking what did amanda say about
18:18 administered programs you can go back to study abroad 101 listen to that module understand share
18:25 it with your family and then keep learning more about which program is the right fit for you
18:30 last my team and i would love to talk with you whether it's about picking a program or identifying
18:36 scholarships or really just taking the first step we have all of our advising appointments or
18:42 our zoom walk drop in hours online via the student appointment scheduler and we i cannot stress this enough we
18:48 genuinely cannot wait to help you explore your study abroad journey because the journey doesn't begin when you get on
18:54 the plane the journey began when you came to this info session tonight and i'll be on
18:59 hand to answer any questions after my colleagues speak unless there's anything in the chat
19:05 right now i don't know i haven't been watching
19:12 we don't have any questions right now so i think we will move on to carolyn
19:18 lance she's going to tell us about the aspire program
19:28 you are unmute carolyn yes i was trying to share my screen and
19:36 let's see what we've got going on here oh excuse me i think i have
19:43 exited talk amongst yourselves please
19:52 so very quickly um i will tell you about the hls we do have a scholarships
19:59 available it's the study abroad scholarships and carolyn do you have should i go
20:04 ahead and share my screen real quick i have one sure okay
20:21 here we go can you see that so these are the study abroad
20:26 scholarships available through hls i will put we have the anderson overseas
20:34 studies i think you're on the wrong you're on the wrong window i'm i'm on the wrong oh great perfect
20:42 there now what do you see the same thing um stop stop sharing hit uh share
20:49 screen and then you can change what's in the screen
20:56 how's that there we go okay so we have
21:04 we have the anderson overseas study feltman simcocks feltman simcox james d fielding family
21:12 and the patrick o'meara those are all scholarships that are available so it's like amanda was talking about that's
21:17 money you don't have to give back we have award information different
21:23 amount ranges for whether you're going a summer the full
21:28 academic year are different terms and i have the deadlines here um i can put jackie breeding is the
21:35 person who you would want to contact for this information and i'll put her
21:40 email in the chat and make sure we have that for everyone and then uh hls also has the wesita exchange program
21:47 that is uh at in japan actually and was it a university in japan so i
21:55 just needed to get that out there real quick and now we'll switch over to carolyn
22:01 there we go great thank you let's see if i can manage my my part now
22:13 how's that look good all right great um okay so uh
22:21 thanks to amanda for that introduction and as she mentioned um or i guess as heather mentioned i'll
22:27 be talking about aspire programs and this is uh these are names a name
22:32 that we've applied to programs being offered by the college of arts and sciences
22:37 and some of our programs are available only to college majors and others are available to any iub
22:45 student but are taught by college faculty and so come under the umbrella of what
22:51 we're offering out of the college so what we have are exchanges which you got that brief
22:58 snippet before about how exchanges work um study tours which are faculty-led
23:04 programs and our semester program which we is an interdisciplinary semester program
23:12 which we will be offering in italy next spring
23:17 so i think many of you might be interested in our exchanges this is the one that's exclusively for
23:22 college majors and we have um we have nine different
23:28 partner universities five of them are in europe so maybe of particular interest to you
23:34 and these programs are um for a semester or for a year and
23:43 we it is a reciprocal exchange so you pay your iu tuition
23:49 the student from the partner university pays tuition at at their home institution and you
23:54 swap places so you actually do not need to pay any tuition to the partner university
24:00 and this means also that you will be paying either indiana resident or non-resident
24:06 tuition at iu and compared to what some study abroad programs cost both those that are
24:14 available through iu or externally these this can be a very affordable way
24:20 to study abroad and you are enrolling in the university so you are attending classes with the students
24:29 who who go there here is a highlight of some of the programs that we
24:34 have in europe um as you can see we have a programmer bun
24:40 university in france the this one does require advanced
24:46 french we have started out with um our discussions with the university of
24:52 pierre and marie curie and they it merged at the beginning of 2018
24:58 with the arts and humanities part of the universe urban university to comprise this new institution and
25:06 um so there's a very strong there are very strong connections with the natural sciences there it'd be a great place to
25:13 go there but arts and humanities and social sciences are also available
25:18 uh university of manchester is a very large very highly regarded
25:24 university in the northern part of england and we
25:29 have had some students go there in fact one student an intrepid soul is there right now she
25:36 just left to go there last week and um
25:41 will be having an unusual semester abroad but she will get to enjoy living in
25:46 manchester other locations that we have in europe are three
25:52 new partners of ours we were planning to have students travel um last year but that
25:59 got interrupted of course we have a partnership with a university
26:04 in sweden and i do not know swedish so i'm sure i'm pronouncing it wrong
26:10 but linkoping somebody who knows better might be able to correct me on that
26:15 we have had a connection between our um cognitive science program and this
26:21 university for quite some time and this the iu students who have gone there come back raving about their experiences
26:28 and so they that's a really interesting university to to attend this is just outside of
26:34 stockholm um in russia st petersburg hsc university that's the higher school of
26:40 economics university but it offers much more than just economics um is a great destination
26:48 and you can take classes um in english and also study russian while
26:54 you're there and the same thing with uh our uni partner university in madrid
26:59 this is all all three of these are great institutions for students who are
27:05 perhaps studying the language but do not feel proficient enough to be
27:11 able to take a course load in that language so you still get kind of a language immersive experience
27:18 but are able to go take your classes in english and these are classes offered at that university in
27:24 english so you'll be you you'll still perhaps be sitting side by side with a russian student for instance they're not classes
27:32 just for exchange students or international students
27:37 and as as amanda mentioned these are factor into your iu gpa
27:45 because they they are for direct iu credit um we expect that students would take a normal
27:51 semester's load of 15 credit hours abroad or the the equivalent in the host universities
27:59 system um and your course equivalencies can be evaluated upon request once you
28:06 um by college faculty to see how those will trans translate into um corresponding iu
28:14 courses and of course talk to your advisor or advisors if you have more than one for
28:22 me a second major or minor this the go.iu.edu aspire exchanges is
28:30 where we have more information you can find fact sheets there on the exchange program as well as links to
28:38 the partner university website that provides anything from course listings to
28:43 accommodations and so on many of these universities are very well prepared to
28:50 receive international students and so they have a lot of good information online
28:56 and applications for next year for next academic year are open right now
29:01 so um you can go to this site and find the application form you can page
29:06 through it without even having to um fill it out just yet so you can see what's involved but we will be accepting
29:14 applications by march 1st for fall 2021 or academic year
29:20 2122 this is a nomination process so the college
29:26 of arts and sciences will interview and select students that it will nominate
29:31 uh to the partner university and only after that part step has taken
29:37 place would you then apply to the partner university for admission
29:43 a second model are aspire study tours this is our term for faculty-led programs
29:49 we don't do very many of them in the summer but we do have programs that are
29:55 attached to spring course spring semester courses so one is called a companion course
30:02 we do have one of those that we're hoping to run this year covid notwithstanding if it's abated
30:09 enough by may um and this is it's a criminal justice course in prague
30:15 and we call it a companion course where there are 25 students in the course this spring
30:21 semester and about 14 12 or 14 of them will be
30:26 traveling to prague for 10 days at the end of that course as an additional one credit
30:31 component an embedded course would mean that everyone in the class during the spring
30:37 semester travels abroad so we only have that one
30:42 this year and we may have more in coming years and this is another
30:49 program that i'm very excited to tell you about aspire semester so this is great for the student the
30:56 exchange programs we only send a couple of students to each partner university each year
31:01 which means that um you know you're kind of on your own on
31:06 your own adventure this is a good program for a student who wants to go spend a semester in europe
31:12 but is interested in being part of a group it's taught iu classes taught by college faculty
31:19 with iu students for a semester and it's very
31:24 interdisciplinary it's very site specific there are a lot of excursions
31:30 to different places where you get to um have both the
31:36 uh classics professor and the geology professor talk about why
31:43 this particular building or this particular
31:48 location has developed the way that it has we have not opened up applications for this yet but
31:55 we will soon and they will be due april 1st for the following spring semester
32:02 and this like the exchange programs you're paying regular iu tuition
32:09 so when you look at the program fee which covers your lodging on top of
32:16 your tuition and then you know some meals and your airfare on
32:21 top of that for many students this works out to be about the same cost as
32:28 what it takes to spend a semester in bloomington or not very much more i mean when i say
32:33 not very much even just a matter of a few hundred dollars more depending on how great a deal you get on
32:39 your airfare for instance so this is a very affordable way to go abroad
32:44 our office also has some travel grants that are awarded on a competitive basis
32:50 which is another way to help defray some of your costs so those are some of the programs that
32:55 the college offers that i wanted to feature with you um if you have a questions uh go
33:02 write us to the at this email um or check out our webpages at go.iu.edu
33:10 aspire so that's all from me right now any any
33:17 questions
33:22 okay amazing questions so thank you carolyn so much and let's move
33:28 on to ochema
33:39 much while you're muted
33:52 thank you ah my screen froze and i couldn't get to the unbutt button i can't even
33:58 see it now so i'm glad that you can hear me now yay um and i believe you can see my screen
34:05 um so my name is achima eskew and i'm with the overseas studies and scholarship program within the diversity
34:12 equity and multicultural affairs office in my office we have study abroad
34:18 scholarship for students and also we do run a faculty-led short-term custom
34:24 programs so today i will be mostly talking about financial aid including the scholarship
34:29 that my office administers so the dema study abroad scholarship is actually for students in
34:35 the iu bloomington 21st century scholars program groups scholars program and hudson and
34:41 holland scholars program the scholarship provides it's a
34:46 need-based scholarship so i will have to demonstrate financial need and we do have an application process
34:53 open for each term for fall spring and summer semester and
34:58 there's the program eligibility requirements the program has to have a credit that's
35:04 associated with it so currently we have our scholarship for summer 2021 open
35:10 and once that closes in march we'll open up the fall and academic year program applications so
35:16 if you do have any questions about the dmi specific scholarship feel free to contact me so um
35:24 the this even though i'm talking about the dma study abroad scholarship general
35:31 application could apply for any study abroad scholarship so just keep that in mind
35:36 in like amanda said iu has wonderful funding for study abroad there's
35:42 national scholarship there's state scholarship there are so many study abroad scholarship but
35:47 just imagine no money is going to come in like you know big chunk out of nowhere so you
35:55 might have to apply to multiple scholarships but the good thing is scholarships are basically looking for similar
36:01 information from you you know why you're studying abroad what's your academic goal professional calling etc so
36:08 having that information available and have a really good written essay would help you to repurpose those
36:14 writing or repurpose those applications for multiple scholarship applications so i have a
36:21 link here i will be sharing the slides with heather so when she's sharing that information with all the attendees you
36:27 can get a copy of that so we do have again our application component is very similar we basically
36:34 want to know about why your students are studying abroad and we have some questions and then we also ask for recommendations
36:41 which is also very typical for study abroad scholarships and in this um what one thing i would
36:46 like to highlight and to suggest to students is to think about who which faculty you
36:54 want to approach earlier and then also make sure to let your faculty know long in advance before the deadline of
37:01 your application and also make sure to provide enough information for your faculty to write
37:06 strong recommendation letter for you so for us the faculty has to be iu one of the recommendation has to come from
37:12 io faculty and there's an instruction here so again when you're ready to apply for this specific scholarship
37:18 and you have questions please reach out to me and our scholarship we ask for
37:25 a fee sheet so this is just a sample from um one of the programs cost sponsored
37:31 programs that's offered through the office of overseas study um the fee sheets might not look exactly like this so it basically shows you
37:39 the budget um the cost estimate of the study abroad program that you're planning to participate
37:46 and for our dma scholarship like i said we do have a deadline for
37:51 each term and then within a couple of months uh students will be notified whether they get the scholarship or not
37:58 and when they receive the scholarship it will be posted to students financial aid
38:05 and going back about the study abroad scholarship in general i since i work with a lot of students who
38:13 receive need-based financial aid on bloomington so sometimes students do not seek out for study
38:19 abroad funding because they fear that by them applying for additional scholarship might impact their existing
38:26 financial aid so for example 21st century scholars or groups what happens is when you do study abroad
38:34 office of student financial aid will get that information and they will know exactly how much your
38:40 study abroad program would cost and then they will do a budget adjustment so in many cases if students
38:46 study abroad for a semester your cost of attendance that semester might be more expensive than your semester here
38:52 at iu bloomington in that case they will increase your cost of attendance which will
38:57 give you a room to receive additional financial aid so your existing financial aid should not
39:02 be impacted at all when you apply for additional scholarships so it is very important to know that
39:10 like i mentioned earlier our scholarship asks for essay so are many and questions are quite
39:17 similar so just you know if you have time right now um start thinking about or drafting an
39:23 essay that you would repurpose for many programs and applications
39:30 and i would like to share about few events so in addition to running a program
39:36 and administering a scholarship we'd run lots of events so basically something like this where
39:42 we want to um promote study abroad and tell students different aspects of study
39:49 abroad right so because we want to help you to study abroad but we want you to plan it well
39:55 in so this week we're hosting a couple of events one this coming wednesday marketing your international experi
40:02 experience although this event is really targeted for students who studied abroad it is a good idea too for students who
40:09 haven't studied abroad to attend so you know exactly what you'll be learning or what skills that should you
40:15 be looking for when you participate these programs in addition we will host the event for benjamin
40:22 gilman in gilman mccain scholarship so i have a little bit more information about this scholarship
40:28 later it's basically open to all iu students and it's a national competitive
40:33 scholarship um so i'll talk about that in a little bit um and then uh in collaboration with house
40:40 of overseas studies student financial aid and hub and honors college we also have an event that's specifically for
40:46 financing study abroad so we'll have long lists of national and iu scholarship and also
40:52 talk about you know different components of financial aid student loans and etc so if you do have
40:57 time please attend if you have conflicts go ahead and register and we'll share the
41:02 recording and slides with you after the event and then um we will are hosting also writing
41:09 workshop and this is this event is specifically targeting for gilman
41:14 scholarship because the essay asks for multiple essays and the scholarship asks for multiple
41:20 essays and it's important to know exactly your prompt and learn about writing skills
41:25 so if you do have time please sign up for these events
41:30 my next topic is to cover the benjamin a gilman and gilman mccain scholarship it is one of the largest or
41:37 the largest national study abroad scholarship for undergraduate students u.s undergraduate
41:43 students so as you can see there are two different names one is gilman scholarship and one is gilman mccain's scholarship
41:49 so the require um the application components are the same there's
41:54 slightly little difference so you have to be us citizen you have to
42:00 be an academic good standing no gpa requirements you have to study abroad at least for
42:05 three weeks uh the the travel advisory level one and two basically you have to travel to a
42:12 country where u.s state department says it's safe to travel currently due to pandemic a lot of
42:18 countries are in level three in that case you can still apply so if you want to learn about again at this
42:24 scholarship please come to one of our sessions the gilman scholarship is
42:29 for federal pell grant recipients so you have to be receiving pell grant
42:35 to apply for this scholarship right so and then the gilman mccain scholarship is
42:41 for dependent child of active dually military members and you have to be
42:47 receiving any of the title for federal financial aid and when they provide a scholarship it's
42:54 quite generous like somewhere around five thousand dollars and then if you study abroad one of the
43:00 critical languages critical need languages there's additional money so i like to talk about study abroad
43:06 money that students can apply and get you have to work hard but it's out there and again there's another
43:14 brief information about this funding the gilman scholarship has two application cycles
43:19 one deadline closes in october another one closes in march the application for march cycle just opened up this week
43:27 i believe even today maybe and then it'll close on march 2nd so amanda my colleague amanda and i will
43:33 help you with your application process we actually have this great resource on canvas so if any
43:39 students who's gilman recipient or you qualify for gilman mckinnon and if you would like to be added to
43:45 this canvas course please let us know we can add you and in that we walk you through
43:51 a different um parts of the essay questions and essay prompts and help you
43:58 navigate through the application process so i think um i guess i'm done
44:05 so here's my contact information i'm available on zoom
44:11 although i would like to see people but i'm available online so if you have questions please let me know
44:22 thank you ochma so jeff i think you are at last but
44:29 certainly not least please tell us about the hud and honors college opportunities and also i know you have
44:36 a program with esther hum in germanic studies sorry i forgot to mention that before
44:42 but tell us all about it please yeah so hopefully i can get my
44:50 can everyone see the presentation okay so um as everyone mentioned uh my name
44:57 is jeff harding santosh and i am the director of international experiences and undergraduate grants in
45:02 the hutton honors college so there are a few different things that um fall within my purview and my role
45:09 um that fall under the hiup as we refer to the program so i'm primarily going to be talking
45:14 about funding today but to start off i did just want to mention a little bit about um our programs that
45:20 we run particularly the ones to um europe so i have just one slide
45:26 here about our um hut and honor study abroad programs in europe so these are faculty-led programs um as
45:32 amanda was discussing earlier so i will go with that our programs are not
45:37 restricted to hutton honors college students so any iu bloomington undergraduate student is eligible to apply as long as you have
45:45 at least at least a 3.4 overall gpa um so these courses um you do receive
45:51 honors credit uh three credit hours for most of the programs they do also include world
45:56 languages and cultures uh gen ed credit so these unlike the overall um world languages credit that
46:04 you receive by studying abroad for six weeks six credits that was mentioned these courses individually carry that
46:10 credit so if you did one of these programs you would just need to take another three credit hours that could be on
46:15 campus or through a study abroad program to fulfill your world languages credit we do offer automatic scholarships for
46:22 all of our program participants um so if you're admitted to one of our programs then you will automatically
46:28 receive that scholarship and there's no separate application so the programs that we've run in the past that we're
46:34 planning to run again um for next year hopefully we have a summer program to the netherlands called
46:40 wartime in the netherlands that focuses on world war ii um its history and then
46:45 its impact on modern dutch society so that's four weeks long typically in july
46:51 and we are housed in the hague netherlands and we also have day trips to other cities
46:57 within the netherlands as well as a weekend trip to amsterdam um we also have a um
47:04 a study tour program our reading the city parisian spaces which includes a second eight weeks
47:10 course on campus and then two weeks in paris um in may so right
47:15 after the semester is over and so the interesting thing about that program um is
47:20 that you don't have to pay any additional tuition if you are taking it as part of your
47:26 full-time load in the spring you just have to pay the program fee and i will say this is our cheapest program
47:32 probably the cheapest program at iu after scholarship um last time we offered this program the
47:38 students only had to pay for their flights food and at 500 so um
47:44 obviously things can change over time but that's um we try to keep our prices low through the scholarship
47:49 that is available so those are the two programs we've run in the past that will be recurring we also have other programs
47:55 to other areas of the world costa rica ghana etc so you can always check out our
48:00 website to see what's coming up we are also hoping to have two new programs running
48:06 next year um one will be at one of these um study tour programs that will go to london that will have second eight weeks
48:13 with one week abroad and that will be a history course focused on um the city and western civilization and
48:20 then we will have a four-week program to central europe that will travel through germany poland and hungary
48:25 and that will be about um historical remembrance and so there'll be more information on those programs coming out
48:32 um once we're sure that they're happening so keep an eye on our website and always feel free to reach out with
48:39 any questions for me so um now the bulk of my
48:44 presentation will be focused on the hiep grant and so the hiep grant is the single largest source of funding
48:51 at iu for undergraduates who are going abroad and this funding can be used broadly so it's a
48:57 lot less restricted than other types of study abroad scholarships are so you can use it of course
49:02 for traditional study abroad where you're going abroad to take classes and get credits
49:07 you can also use it for research internships overseas student teaching in another country
49:14 volunteer experiences abroad and any other academic or worthwhile interests so
49:19 we um the point of the hiep grant is to broadly fund um different types of
49:25 international experiences whether you're receiving or not receiving credit as well as whether those are iu or
49:32 non-iu programs so a little bit about the the grant funding in general um our award range
49:39 um goes from 500 up to 3 300 and so everything um through the honors
49:46 college is merit-based so their financial need is not a component so you don't need to
49:51 submit fafsa information or anything like that to us in order to qualify um you might be looking at that range
49:58 and thinking you know 500 to 3 300 is a pretty big difference where would i fall on that if i were to
50:04 apply and so the the biggest determinant of how much money you can receive through the hiep grant is how long you're going
50:11 abroad for so if you're doing a spring break program for example you'll be towards the 500
50:17 end of things if you're doing an academic year abroad you'll be in the 3000 range so that's where you
50:22 start out but then your other materials and your application determine exactly how much you would receive if you're awarded so
50:28 of course gpa your letters of recommendation your personal essays all of that get combined
50:34 together to determine what your award amount would be so with all that said um we do have an
50:41 acceptance rate typically of around 90 so if you do meet the eligibility criteria which i'll mention
50:46 in just a second then you should definitely apply because there's plenty of funding available we give out
50:52 close to a million dollars each year to undergraduates who are going abroad obviously not this year and this past
50:57 year because of covid but typically we do have that amount of money to give out we also have some additional name
51:04 scholarships that are awarded on a competitive basis which i'll mention in a moment and those can add on top of
51:10 the base funding so through the combination of um the name scholarships and the hiep grant you could receive up
51:17 to five thousand dollars through the hiep so eligibility requirements you do have
51:23 to be a full-time iu bloomington undergraduate student who's finished at least 12 graded um credits so that means
51:30 if you um once you've finished your first semester at iu you are eligible to apply
51:37 the gpa requirements are a 3.4 overall gpa or a 3-7 in your major so as long as
51:42 you have one of those you do meet the eligibility criteria you have to complete your travels before your official iu
51:49 graduation date so if you're a senior and you're thinking about doing a summer program you would want to make sure that your
51:54 official graduation date is moved back to august so that way you can still be eligible for funding
52:00 but you can still do commencement in may even if you're graduating in august so as most things at iu you may not
52:06 travel to a level three or level four travel warning country as defined by the state department
52:12 and this hiep grant is a one-time only award so i do mention that in case you are thinking of doing multiple programs
52:18 it's typically better to save the hiep grant for the longer one because as i mentioned
52:23 you'll likely receive more money but if anyone's in that situation you can always reach out to me directly
52:28 and i can help you decide when it would be best to apply so there are just a few restrictions on
52:34 how the hip grant interacts with other types of scholarships so if you are a wells scholar
52:40 unfortunately you are ineligible for the hiep grant since the well scholar has significant
52:46 funding for study abroad built into that program if you are a kelly scholar you can't
52:51 combine the hiep grant with the automatic short-term study abroad funding that that program has
52:57 and so again this is just for the kelly scholars program specifically not general business school students so
53:04 um if you were a lamp student they also have a scholarship that was at least partially funded by mr hutton so you
53:10 just can't combine the two so that would be a good instance to maybe think about doing two programs
53:16 because if you're a lamp student you could access the hiep grant for one and then the lamp scholarship for
53:21 another and then finally if you're doing one of our programs um like the ones i mentioned at the
53:26 beginning of my presentation you aren't eligible for the standalone hiep grant because you would receive the automatic
53:33 scholarship through that program however you do retain your eligibility for the hiep grant if you want to do
53:39 another program later so say you went to the netherlands with us next summer and then the following spring semester
53:45 you were going to do a semester exchange then you could save your hiep grant for that
53:52 okay and so i'll try to get through this part quickly so um if you go to the hiep website which
53:58 is just hiep.indiana.edu or you can google any kind of combination of terms that'll get you
54:05 there you can find the application details and the deadline so the entire application is um
54:13 submitted online um and it will also include um the information for your
54:19 faculty recommender so once you submit your application it will automatically email your faculty member so that way they can access the
54:26 portal and upload their uh recommendation for you the only time that you'll need to turn anything
54:31 in a hard copy is if you are doing a non-iu program there is a waiver and release form that
54:38 you would need to sign that you can submit to my office um if you're doing summer
54:43 fall or academic year programs um we have one application deadline for all of those and it's
54:49 typically the friday before spring break but since there is no spring break this semester i've set it as march 12th
54:55 if you are going looking ahead and going to do a spring semester winter break or spring break program
55:01 those are due the last friday in october so for next year those will be due on october 29th
55:09 okay so here's just some information as you can see our essay question is very similar to the information that ochma
55:15 asks for in hers so as she said just to reiterate once you've written one study abroad essay you've written 100 study abroad
55:22 essays so always make sure that you're answering the specific questions they're answering or they're asking for
55:27 but for the most part we're all asking for very similar information so i always say write your most
55:34 complicated essay first and then you can kind of rework it from there um
55:39 as i mentioned we do have a very high acceptance rate um but with there are some denials each year
55:44 and so for the most part they those come down to not following the instructions so not um turning everything in on time
55:52 or not getting a recommendation from a faculty member um but it can also be writing a
55:57 particularly weak essay so just make sure that you are putting your best foot forward um because for most of
56:04 the committee that reviews these applications this is their only chance to get to know you and why you should be funded for
56:10 study abroad um so just keep that in mind and make sure you don't write anything
56:15 too out there in your essay so as i mentioned we have a whole host of name scholarships that are available
56:22 most of these are for certain majors so for example we have one for the business student
56:27 one for students who are in o'neill education etc some are for specific locations such as
56:33 china or japan and then others are more general so some of these are
56:38 exclusive to honors college students while others are open to all students so you just want to check
56:45 on the website to see which ones are eligible for the good news is there's no separate application for these scholarships
56:51 you're automatically considered with your base hiep grant application you just have to select the ones that you're
56:56 eligible for so just look through that list and make sure you're picking only the ones you're eligible for because if you
57:02 select all of them you will not be considered because there's no way any one student is eligible to all of these because
57:09 some of them are for a specific spring break study abroad program so just keep those in mind
57:15 um and then finally there are other grants available through the hutton honors college through my programs um so these are for
57:22 specific types of activities so internships research creative activities are our most popular ones
57:28 um those can be used domestically or internationally so for example whether you're doing an internship in
57:34 chicago or an internship in london for us it's the same and you're eligible to apply for that internship
57:40 grant so these are also one time only awards and they can't be combined with the hiep grant but this is another way
57:46 where you could potentially stagger and do multiple programs and receive funding so you could definitely reach out um to me
57:53 through that email address there and i can i'm happy to answer any questions that you might have
57:58 okay
58:03 great thank you so much jeff do we have questions from
58:10 anyone in the audience i did want to ask one question real quick just to clarify how does health insurance work
58:17 while students are studying abroad
58:22 i'll take that one so the study abroad program that a student is doing includes health insurance if you're
58:28 doing a co-sponsored program through the alphabet soup of ciee or ies they have insurance that students
58:35 that students are required to have if you're on an iu program most often students will be enrolled in geo blue as
58:41 just the company of choice that indiana university uses if you're asking about what what is cut
58:48 what one could expect to have for coverage it varies uh depending on the the policy
58:54 however we always advise students to ensure that they stay on their own insurance or their parents insurance
59:00 that way they have coverage for their pre-existing conditions and then they have the overseas coverage which of
59:05 course their domestic insurance might not cover if they're out of state so students should in theory have two
59:10 types of coverage when they study abroad perfect thank you so we have a couple
59:16 questions for jeff on hutton honors and i think you answered the first one
59:22 it says on the iu study abroad application portal the one that most study abroad programs redirect to
59:28 the hutton honors scholarship is listed as being due the friday before spring break and is that the one you said
59:35 is actually due march 12th this year yeah the hiep grant and the other um so if you'll look right now it hasn't
59:42 been updated yet but the um internship grants and things like that any of the summer funding through my
59:48 programs march 12th will be the deadline so that'll be updated on our website but most of the other if you're applying
59:54 through i abroad or you have other checklists through iu you might still see the the spring break
1:00:00 language it's all referring to the march 12th now and okay great and are there no
1:00:06 pardon me are there no hutton study abroad programs this summer yes so we had we had already canceled um
1:00:14 through the end of june um and we were kind of holding out for the netherlands to hope for july
1:00:19 um we're we haven't announced the final decision but i'm i'm over 90 sure that we're gonna go
1:00:25 ahead and push that one back to 2022 as well just to be on the safe side and make sure that everyone can
1:00:32 travel safely and actually be admitted to the european union right great thank you very much
1:00:40 um here's one and it doesn't say exactly who it's for so i'm just gonna put it out there
1:00:45 do you only work with undergraduate students or do you offer information for graduate students actually i i can answer that one yes
1:00:53 i think everyone here does uh have information for graduate students except perhaps hutton
1:01:00 so all of the things that are available through hutton are like the funding and everything is
1:01:06 for gra is for undergraduates only we do have some events and things that are preparing for
1:01:11 graduate study um or for post iu but we we are primarily focused on
1:01:17 undergrads and graduating seniors and amanda and ochma and carolyn
1:01:27 go ahead carolyn well i was just going to say that most of our activity is for undergraduate students
1:01:33 we do have a graduate student research program at the university of manchester for phd
1:01:38 candidates and graduate level students are welcome to go on our on the study tours that we offer
1:01:46 but the exchanges are for and the semester in italy are intended for
1:01:52 undergrads and for recording purposes since
1:01:58 rick anybody watching this can't see the chat overseas study works with undergrads we recommend that grad students talk
1:02:03 with their academic department to see if there are any opportunities germane to their academic study you can always take a look at the
1:02:10 office of vice president for international affairs ovpia database to see if there are
1:02:15 unique um i don't know degree com compliments i don't know to see if
1:02:21 there's something unique that maybe your department isn't even aware of um otherwise we just recommend you're welcome to look on overseas studies
1:02:27 section under experiential slash work abroad volunteer broad in case there are other little rabbit holes that take you into a
1:02:34 warrant of other opportunities for graduate level overseas work
1:02:39 if however anyone is on here and i know we had at least two grad students in this session if you're interested in foreign language
1:02:45 then i'd be happy to direct you to opportunities for funding for foreign language graduate
1:02:50 level study yeah yeah and i just wanted to mention and frank just
1:02:55 um put it in the chat there um i'm um an alum of european studies from the ma
1:03:02 program and i did the exchange with iu at the um free university of berlin
1:03:08 so if anyone is interested in in that opportunity you can always feel free to reach out to me
1:03:13 at my iu email address i'm always happy to talk about that and there are also a number of other
1:03:20 opportunities as amanda mentioned through ovpia for exchange for
1:03:25 graduate students in ovpd my study abroad scholarship and
1:03:31 programs are only for undergraduate students okay thank you um
1:03:38 so i think perhaps this question is for amanda
1:03:45 your way and let me know you can shoot it to someone else have you heard from ies or other
1:03:50 programs that are running this summer 2021 about the probability of canceling
1:03:56 uh no let me rephrase that sorry that was a knee jerk response no we have not heard of them canceling
1:04:03 having a probability of canceling it's the p word that i'm actually kind of getting hung up on what happens is is iu has allowed us to
1:04:11 open our application cycle which is open right now for summer 21 fall 21 and ay programs again
1:04:17 ones run through our office not carolyn not jeff's not ultimate programs right we are opening those because our
1:04:23 partners have opened their applications ies is accepting applications cie
1:04:28 our exchange and administered program partners are able they say they are able to host students
1:04:33 unless and until those partners say oop nope we're not able to do it we keep going forward so no ies has not
1:04:41 told us that the programs that are active right now on our website are canceled that doesn't mean that they
1:04:46 won't be cancelled pending the pandemic's trajectory trajectory but the
1:04:51 programs that partners have proactively cancelled are already reflected on our website
1:04:57 if tomorrow something came through and was cancelled we would notify applicants who are in the pool and we would modify our website to say
1:05:03 this program is not accepting for 2021
1:05:08 thank you do we have any other questions or does anyone have any
1:05:14 last comments do it right do it if if the
1:05:22 20 something of you hung on till the very end you're you're in it and we want we want
1:05:27 to work with you i've honestly been looking up every single student that's uh registered here to find out like
1:05:33 what's your major do you have a pell grant or do you fall under ovp dima because we really want to help students
1:05:39 understand like this is a college opportunity for you did you know you're eligible for this scholarship
1:05:44 we are not sitting here idly during the pandemic just because we can't send hordes and hordes of hoosiers abroad
1:05:50 we want to and we want you to be part of that horde when it's ready so when it's when it's safe to do
1:05:56 so so talk with my office talk with uh jeff or carolyn depending on what your interests are we
1:06:02 want to help you find an opportunity and funding to make that a reality again this has not changed
1:06:07 the pandemic has not changed the dna of indiana university we are still very much globally oriented
1:06:14 as you can tell by this wonderful presentation that heather and frank put together
1:06:19 oh thank you well it looks like we are a little over time and we don't
1:06:24 have any more questions carolyn jeff ochema any parting comments
1:06:29 frank um in the chat box i just posted the latest up covet update on
1:06:35 that that's on the office of overseas study website which also has a list of um programs
1:06:41 for summer and fall 2021. so if you can share that with the attendee later that would be great
1:06:49 yes definitely thank you frank just want to really briefly push
1:06:57 my own program food cultures of greece the history and anthropology of greek cuisines from
1:07:02 antiquity through the present uh hope to have it back up and running uh in the summer of 22
1:07:08 we're based in athens but also travel to the peloponnese southern greece and to santorini it's a fascinating course
1:07:20 anybody else well perfect carolyn yeah
1:07:25 no okay well thank you so much to everyone who came to find out information and to everyone who came to
1:07:32 provide information this has been great and i so appreciate everyone showing up we will have uh this this
1:07:39 will be on our facebook page it's been live streamed but we'll also have the link available to the youtube
1:07:45 record the youtube link available on our website and we will send information out please feel free to reach out to euro or
1:07:54 any of the speakers here if you have any questions thanks so much and have a great night
1:07:59 thanks for joining us bye thank you everyone thank you bye thank you

Description of the video:

0:00 are with us as well from athens and um i already i already said a couple words
0:06 tonight the only things i want to remind you all who were not with us in the beginning was that irini
0:14 and jackie were not only the conveners of this discussion but they were also
0:21 responsible for the entire production for the staging for the filming
0:28 aesthetics and we're also responsible for the final editing
0:33 uh of the of the of the the video that went up online there were over two hours of this discussion and
0:40 that irini and jackie were obligated to edit down um
0:47 because of various considerations having to do with audience concerns and other issues um and i would like to
0:55 again reiterate that this is both a cultural artifact what you just saw in a document
1:02 um so it has multiple functions social political uh aesthetic
1:09 uh in a variety of ways and i will turn over the questions directly to you all be doing is uh if you want to
1:16 be typing say you know raising your hand that you wanted to unmute and put your video on and direct
1:23 your question directly to irini and jackie or you can type your question in the
1:29 chat and i will you know convey it whichever you prefer i i will just uh i am
1:37 extremely happy and grateful to have irini and jackie with us and that's all so it's all it's open
1:55 hi everyone i'm jackie um on behalf of myself and
2:02 evening we just want to um extend a thank you to frank and the institute and the
2:08 university for inviting us to be with you all here today and thank you for watching as well
2:18 jackie arena it's our great pleasure to have you with us um leslie do you have some questions you
2:25 could start with well i could i could ask about um
2:33 how did you go about selecting all these wonderful uh participant discussions that you had
2:41 in in this wonderful discussion
2:52 um actually it was um so this was an idea that iranian
2:58 uh myself had um before it even we even got to
3:04 collaborate with the nasa foundation on it we um
3:09 well we've been friends for a long time so we're we've kind of have been active and have done
3:15 different things in athens and following off of the events
3:20 and the protests surrounding the murder of george flord we um were discussing amongst ourselves how
3:27 we can have a discussion here in athens um
3:32 a discussion initially would be one of the discussions to be amongst other black uh greeks black opinions
3:39 and um so we had already gotten into a kind of like a mood of thinking of of
3:45 of people that we wanted to reach out to um and then once the collaboration with
3:50 analysis came into effect then we had to kind of be a lot more intentional on if you know this was an opportunity
3:57 for us to kind of present um what black greeks look like so a lot of
4:03 thought went into that into making sure that we can cover a kind of wide range of us um
4:10 people doing different i mean we saw a lot about professions what people are doing for a lot about opinion points because i mean there was
4:18 a very i don't you kind of got the feel of how people were um kind of approaching the
4:24 topic as well from different standpoints some people spoke about it on a more personal level some people spoke about it a little bit
4:30 more putting into like talking more about um
4:36 racism and how it you know it comes about and things like that so we thought those were the kind of thoughts
4:41 that we were having in terms of who to include i don't know if he really wants to fill in
4:50 yes hi hello from me as well uh thank you for the invitation uh well
4:58 uh jackie put it for everything actually quite well uh our main our main goal was to
5:06 have um the most accurate representation of uh afrogreeks in greece and
5:14 through our or through our own lands uh of course we were subjective of course uh
5:20 during the process and we wanted to have um to let the
5:27 rest of greece actually know that um there there's a variety of people
5:33 it's what might the media might have um represented over the time over the
5:41 careers uh is quite different and
5:47 um we thought that it was actually an educational obligation that we had um we
5:55 saw what was going on in the united states we were aware of our circumstances here circumstances here in
6:01 greece and we thought that what would we could um
6:08 introduce into the discussion was our experiences
6:16 that's all i have i have a question already from one of our participants
6:21 on ifr grizzle uh is asking you quote it was evident that the focus
6:27 group had an emancipatory effect for the co-creators of the documentary
6:34 what has been the legacy uh of the initial discussion
6:41 what what do you mean by emancipatory so i don't know who asked the question if they could explain a bit
6:46 what they mean by emancipation it was uh good afternoon thank you both for
6:52 your exceptional work i i could tell that as much as people started as
6:57 as it evolved people started to kind of get stronger from just being around
7:03 other people they they no longer felt lonely as if they were going through this together and you could see this
7:09 strong strength that was building in everyone so i just wanted to see you know know if there have been talks about how to
7:16 continue this and are there any other projects that kind of came out of it because it was clear that everyone by the end
7:22 uh everyone could kind of start it started to seem like they were leaning on each other
7:29 ah okay uh yeah okay i think it was mentioned more at
7:34 the end of the video how um i think what did jerome said it about it being like i don't remember
7:41 what he said it was it was like a black people therapy because actually
7:48 it was black design yeah
7:54 for us our actual first intention for it i mean parallel to it being filmed
8:00 and then being put out in the public art first and for most concern was to create a space
8:07 a sort of safe space for us to come together and just talk about um
8:16 what's how our experiences in greece and it was the first time where we
8:22 actually got an opportunity to do so to come together in that way to have a very specific discussion because
8:28 obviously we have our experiences you know we have the people we know we talk about things but very individually if
8:34 that makes sense we hadn't necessarily come together and um have the opportunity to
8:39 really just talk amongst ourselves and that was that i mean that's why it became a two-hour long conversation
8:45 in the end that both iranian eye then had to edit down to the 45 minutes that you
8:50 eventually saw on your screens but yeah i mean and and we felt the responsibility of that
8:56 we wanted we didn't want anyone to leave that space feeling um not feeling in any way
9:03 slighted or unhappy about something and and yeah but i think you you i
9:08 kind of picked up on the energy because people were kind of like feeding off each other and um what has it led to
9:15 um yeah uh different things
9:22 i could jump in on that please do uh well you mentioned the word legacy
9:30 and um for me one of the
9:38 products of this discussion was first of all immediate the fact that people felt at the time
9:44 that we had created a safe zone that they could discuss there was no other party that
9:50 was unaware of what we were talking about there were points that were cut out
9:56 because we were saying things that did not make sense um would not make
10:02 sense to the outsider let's say to a person that has not has not had a black the black experience but
10:09 made sense to us and we just nodded and just hummed and said um yeah i agree and that was first of all
10:16 an immediate product an immediate legacy and um yeah that was super
10:23 quite powerful uh the second second the second um part was um the fact that we didn't
10:29 expect to have this kind of response from the greek public um we thought that there
10:34 were people okay that were into that kind of uh into this kind of discussions uh into activism into social
10:43 topics but just receiving comments and uh seeing all the social media
10:50 uh high that this generated was was strange
10:58 and comforting at the same time comforting to hear that um
11:07 you're not alone and in the in the end of the day we're all human beings and
11:12 something you can still connect and your experiences your experiences are relevant to other
11:18 people even though they might not have gone through the same experiences
11:24 i don't know if you want to add something to that
11:33 there are multiple other questions waiting in line i think you can uh all see the chat so we have
11:41 other others who want to uh hear you on on their questions
11:48 this bet uh there's a question from beth would you talk more okay uh would you
11:54 talk more about the distribution of the film has it reached audiences on the african continent
11:59 and in the diasporas
12:07 um i don't know about the african continent uh yes like we've gotten some feedback
12:15 um but i don't know about the african continent
12:20 but still i'm not sure if that would this kind of discussion would be even relevant to the to the african continent
12:28 in the way that um i think that what we were talking about is quite
12:36 particular or a person from another european
12:44 country can understand that from the united states has um can grasp this discussion but i'm not
12:50 i'm not sure if someone from the african continent can actually really put themselves in our in our
12:56 shoes they're dealing with other things
13:04 uh from uh we have another question from karen ko
13:09 uh thank you very much jai queen irini for convening such an important forum i was struck by the point race at the
13:16 start of the conversation contrasting the systemic institutionalized racism in the u.s
13:22 in the apparent absence of that in greece however the examples raised by the
13:29 participants seems to suggest otherwise would you be able to comment on the seeming contradiction
13:35 many thanks again for your work
13:42 um come and take care of you i can start you can finish
13:48 um i what they were alluding to in that part was the fact that obviously in the u.s um i mean we're no experts
13:57 but um it's it's you know years and years and kind of years of
14:04 institutionalized racism while in greece where i mean you have to think about the
14:10 history of um migration into the country which
14:16 is really the first kind of big influx of people was in the 90s
14:21 and so it's not it
14:27 we haven't been around for that long because there's evidence of kind of
14:34 other kind of exchanges so it's not necessary racism here isn't necessarily institutionalized if you
14:40 compare it to what you're seeing and experience in the us but yet you still have
14:47 examples of it in greece it's just not something that is yet it's not out there it's not kind of
14:53 acknowledged in that way what i would add to that is that from
15:01 my understanding because i'm not also an expert on that on this topic i have understood that for
15:08 united laws were stand in order to
15:14 put certain people in a certain place um in greece this is not the case there
15:20 was actually a lack of legislation to support the fact that there are new kind of citizens coming
15:27 into greece that are from other countries which had created a gap and lack of
15:32 access to things like the top the things that foreign mentioned when she was trying to
15:40 further her studies in her medical her medical studies or
15:46 etc so they were not nothing was drafted specifically to let you keep you
15:52 away from doing certain things but there was simply no legislation letting you in
16:02 or limited legislation not no legislation
16:13 can you hear me okay and so i'm calling in from uh the commonwealth of virginia
16:20 commonwealth implying necessarily still a slave state i was struck by the conversation that
16:26 you were having um because as i see it i've researched
16:32 on four continents tracing the african diaspora and there's this common thread
16:38 that is just emotional it's spiritual it's intellectual
16:46 it never ceases to amaze me how s how how so many of us
16:53 disparate dislocated from each other over time and space
17:01 still experienced the same things in the 21st century
17:06 it just boggles my mind so i wanted to thank you and to let you
17:13 know that the phenomena is not a phenomena
17:18 it is a real lived experience wherever the african diaspora is wherever there is a presence
17:26 of western ways of knowing and seeing and living and having said
17:33 that while africa does not have the same type
17:39 of constraints that we might feel in the us
17:44 it doesn't come to them in the same way as it does to us their their um
17:53 participation in their submission their subjectivity comes in the form of things
17:59 like world bank loans mining contracts
18:07 imminent property being taken away from them to subsidize or to support oil and gas
18:15 etc etc or toxic dump sites where computer equipment goes
18:22 to contaminate cross-contaminate their drinking water so it may not be leveraged the same
18:30 it may not be visibly the same but it is the same so thank you
18:37 for bringing that to my attention i appreciate this whole conversation thank
18:43 you so much thank you paula i have a list of
18:50 questions here i need to get i need to uh please all forgive me i'm i'm trying
18:56 to keep a sequencing as you know according to you know priority but i'm not always
19:01 managing i let me read another uh question here from rachel kern um
19:10 uh she says i wanted to say i really found that elias chiama zorones said about the interactions between
19:17 george floyd and the police officer who murdered him incredibly profound i had never thought
19:23 about the interaction as beyond polite as being submissive and i wanted to know how does this
19:30 submission translate into everybody into everyday society how can we get rid
19:35 of this need for people in positions of power to have submission from people of color
19:42 and specifically black people can we
19:50 um you know it constantly kind of amazes me how um
19:58 the um [Music]
20:04 a lot i feel as if a lot of times the questioning around racism and how to um
20:11 combat it or get rid of it it's always as if that it's it's i feel as if we're put in
20:17 a position to have to give the answers of how to get rid of something that we're not actually
20:22 creating or pretty you know what i mean if that makes sense i i don't think i don't know how i would answer that how
20:28 i would answer how can i make somebody who's um
20:36 uh how would i subjugating me or what i don't know i'm not sure how i would describe it how how i
20:42 how they need to like we don't have the answers for that it's not up to us to change that thing of crazy
20:49 systems i don't know if you really want to come in we come in on that
20:57 well in such in such situations such as what george floyd had to experience and so
21:03 many others you have to survive so you will um you will utilize any tool you have
21:11 in order to survive and this does not only applied to racist attacks but
21:18 applies to every human kind of interaction that has this kind of threat let's say cloud
21:27 i was saying sorry my car my cat is whining i'm sorry if you have to listen
21:32 to that but my cat is screaming over here anyways um but yes
21:40 for me uh there is exactly there's no simple solution but we could all start let's say
21:47 by not expecting that somebody else has to be submissive to us and that goes through
21:55 starts from education and from learning how to respect each other yeah i know i started like a persian
22:01 beauty pageant answer but i perhaps had a solution
22:10 maybe i ask a question wait anna there's a well you have there's a there's a list
22:17 of people who've already put down the questions you have to put them on
22:24 how it works because i saw the questions but i don't know which one that they answered yet put them down
22:30 on this on the channel i'll i'll get to you momentarily we have
22:35 we have other people we have a question from enoch in ohio do you feel like you're the gold
22:44 standard for creating safe spaces to discuss black issues
22:52 no where it's a start but i mean in anything that um we do
22:59 what we aim to do we just want to show a possibility um you know i think
23:08 show a possibility in order for that possibility to then you know manifest in other ways people don't when
23:14 you see something that you haven't seen first of all you don't the thing about the shock value in that conversation
23:20 was the fact that people had not seen nine black greeks on their screens like
23:26 that in greece um afrogreeks are not visible in that way
23:32 yeah speaking in fluent greek like we're still at that level in greece where it's
23:38 still like shocking to see black people speaking greek so seeing nine of us boom right there
23:44 speaking you know greek and talking about our experiences and talking about things that people not don't necessarily take into
23:50 consideration um we kind of like gave up we kind of like opened a window into our lives and what we are on the
23:57 receiving end of um so that was um
24:02 we hope that that can multiply you know and i i i i hope we're not the
24:10 old the gold standard i you know i hope people can do more and do other things and take it further it's
24:16 just about kind of creating that start and then watching it opening up possibilities and
24:22 you know somebody else can now see that and say okay i can do something too
24:28 we can be on tv we can be seen in that way i think that that that
24:34 would be the goal from uh jeffrey coleman says that uh the
24:42 film has made its way into the afro afro-spanish community
24:48 so wow excuse me you want to say something more
24:56 hold on can you all hear me thank you and jackie for the the video
25:02 it was fantastic um so i'm a scholar that works on black spain so work you know watching your your
25:10 video was really impactful for me because so much of what was said is exactly the same conversations we're
25:15 having in spain about race and citizenship um and so i had two questions very
25:21 quickly um obviously your video was in response to george floyd so i was wondering
25:28 what was the response of more high-profile black greeks in response to the kind of
25:36 anti-racism movement that we saw this summer and then i had a
25:41 question about terminology because i don't speak greek but i was wondering in terms of the kind
25:47 of terminology in greek that the community uses for itself
25:52 um is that the same throughout all of greece or is it something that is you know athens specific versus the
25:59 islands versus northern greece as in which term though afro greeks as a
26:05 term or yeah just generally speaking right in terms of how black greeks identify themselves is it
26:12 different in different parts of the country yes yes but not in that way
26:23 so afro greeks is a that has recently kind of cropped up and it came it's it it came out of the
26:30 movement for citizenship actually um it came out of a need for us to situate ourselves within the greek
26:38 reality that if that makes sense um we meant it briefly in the video but
26:44 up until 2010 second generation showed the children of migrants in the country didn't have access to greek citizenship
26:51 and that beyond greek citizenship we were just kind of uncounted for
26:57 invisible all of that stuff um and then so there was a whole movement
27:04 which was spearheaded by black greeks because um the thing about it is that we
27:09 are the ones who are often at the front of a lot of stuff because we're visible
27:14 for example somebody um a child of a migrant from an eastern european country for example it's easier for them to
27:20 blend in while us where there were black like no matter what so we the the movement of the second
27:27 generation forced citizenship was spearheaded mostly by black greeks
27:32 um and through that movement the term affluently kind of
27:38 started getting picking up momentum and it's not a term that everyone actually uses though
27:44 um i've had various conversations with others and not everybody uses that term um
27:50 [Music] the first part of your question i don't know if you really want to add on to
27:55 this part of the terminology yes i agree not everyone feels comfortable with that there
28:02 but i don't believe that we are we're a monolith anyone can uh ex i don't know
28:08 represent and express themselves in their in their own way uh we just feel comfortable with this
28:13 term so we utilized it yeah yeah um and the second
28:21 sorry i wanted to say that in greek it's like um in in greek languages afroelliness
28:28 and which i really like as opposed to afro-greek which is in english and greek is an ascription that comes to modern
28:36 greeks from overseas it's not a self-description so it's a last earliness to me afroealiness means a lot
28:44 more than afro-greek that was just the intervention i wanted to make
28:50 it's a lot more meaningful to me you know uh as a greek as a born race greek et
28:55 cetera et cetera and diaspora now so go ahead yeah it's just it's
29:02 literally just that was to um it just literally is a term that just
29:07 um pays homage to the fact that we're blacks or black you know afro so and then greeks to
29:14 greeks um the and this your second question jeffrey
29:19 about uh high profile there are not a lot of fun hi
29:25 high-profile black greek um uh like uh
29:32 black greeks um the there's yanis of the google yeah
29:38 obviously um other than that i mean there's a couple musicians here like not a couple it's like one musician
29:46 um then maybe two actors and they were in the video that's it
29:52 like that's
30:01 we can give it like an honest answer to reactions or you know or how they dealt with the blm
30:07 or anything yeah no i just find it's an interesting comparison because in spain what ended up happening is that athletes
30:14 didn't say anything um i think in part because if you're playing for
30:19 you know barsa real madrid you're worried about your contract right and musicians and artists were more apt to
30:26 say things um and i think that you know i live in milwaukee so giana santitocunpo is right
30:31 down the street somewhere but he you know is in the us right and so he's able to engage
30:37 with blm in a different way because he's here whereas if he were still in greece i don't know
30:43 if he would have maybe he would have been in your video but i don't know if he you know would wear the you know i can't
30:49 breathe jerseys and the things that he was able to do here in the u.s um so that's part of where i was getting
30:55 to see you know where were famous black greeks engaged in the same way as
31:00 the folks in the video um and it seems like they are they're in the video
31:07 that that was the engagement the video has some of the hype going so that that was
31:13 that that is them engaging yeah there was a manager
31:19 yeah and jerome is an actor uh those are the two high-profile greeks
31:24 and they also had some people that were not included in the video so promoted the whole project so
31:31 and everyone was quite vocal even before we started the video there were attempts and actually there were there were demonstrations that were
31:38 held and everyone was quite supportive and wanted to be part of something did you know
31:46 per se what exactly they could do but they wanted to be included also you mentioned the fact the part
31:53 about the answers i don't think that you increase you can be like left out of having a
32:00 political position because this is a quality it's actually taking a political stance and you cannot really see yourself
32:08 in a high in a high profile position without um i don't know speaking out
32:15 uh you will be people will bring you into that kind of um
32:21 spot you'll have to comment and you have to be ready to comment yeah and also just to mention i mean
32:28 obviously this um this video was done because um there was a you know what happened in the states kind of had
32:35 a worldwide um reaction um and so it was done within that specific time
32:40 frame but i mean they're this isn't the first time people have spoken up out about spoken out about racism in greece in
32:48 fact the only few people that as in the only few people that are ever in a position to speak out um are given
32:54 or given a platform it's usually to talk about racism because that's the only thing that people think that we have an opinion on
33:00 so you know it's not it wasn't just the this the video wasn't like the first
33:05 time that black boxing greeks have spoken about racism usually anyone that's ever in some form
33:12 of limelight the first question they're asked is how you know have you experienced racism
33:18 it was the first kind of collective thing that was done you know there was a lot of us very intentional very speaking about
33:26 very specific aspects um the greek experience but otherwise prior to that there have
33:32 been individual people speaking out here and there
33:38 i have um i have a question that came up by several um audience members category and anna
33:46 comanderaikis for example ask after this successful conversation
33:51 what what plans do you have to take more action or what follow-up activities and and
33:57 interventions are you thinking about
34:05 um for both irene and i mean what our goal and what we aspire towards
34:13 doing is just cr um creating the spaces that we don't see
34:19 ourselves in so um
34:24 providing a platform for and not just black greeks just um very people of various
34:32 ethnicities are not visible and not don't have that kind of access
34:37 so a lot of the work that we do i mean beyond the video as well like a lot of the work i do is about um
34:44 access and opportunity so
34:50 yeah so our plans are along along those lines
34:56 yes and basically one of the things that
35:01 we were discussing initially before we uh decided that we okay we're going to go
35:07 for with a specific this kind of discussion was that perhaps some of our
35:14 problems stem from the fact that there is lack of visibility there's lack of
35:19 um let's say uh lack of branding uh
35:26 when you cannot really see the the various spectrums that
35:34 a black person can live within perhaps you cannot visualize them and
35:40 you cannot include them and you cannot be familiarized with them so we want to bring the forward
35:47 and of course black experience but we are studying that so we will also we
35:54 want to include that yeah yeah i have a question that's
36:00 really key to a lot of the a lot of big some parts of the discussion from real estate and she's asking is there
36:07 finally a path to citizenship for immigrants in greece
36:13 you may want to you want to elaborate a little bit just explain to the others because that's the other the concrete factual aspect of the video
36:20 that perhaps none of us were quite aware of the legal framework etc
36:27 yeah sure so i was actually part of the the movement of a second generation
36:32 to four access to greek citizenship um which started out as very grassroots
36:38 very um it started out as far back as 2006 actually
36:43 and uh basically prior to okay so think about it in this term um
36:50 we are basically the second wave of the second generation
36:56 if that makes sense so if you think about how um the the the influx of people into grace
37:02 in in the more modern history um you're thinking about the late 90s so you know our our kind of presence in
37:10 greek society is still very yeah it's recent still yeah yeah very young
37:18 so um up until the 90 well greece's first legislation
37:26 um put forward to regularizing these this influx of people was in 1997
37:33 um you're in the second generation no no no
37:40 i mean my immigrants okay so the first legislation for regularizing
37:45 um the influx of people coming into the country so basically you know documentation let's say was in night it was it was a
37:52 presidential decree in 1997 okay so um
37:58 the the children of these migrants there was no legislation to acknowledge us in any way i'm not
38:05 sure if we're talking about the same thing but there were people that were gaining citizenship before 1997.
38:12 yes but under naturalized natural natural naturalization okay okay okay you're talking about you
38:18 have an important country then they you know their children are now born and raised in grace and yet
38:25 there's no legislation to acknowledge that um yeah so 2010 was the first legislation
38:32 which came about after like years and years and years of um campaigning activist work um
38:39 mobilizing lobbying all kinds of stuff um different groups um spearheaded as
38:45 well by the second generation i like by us ourselves um
38:50 and uh so the first piece of legislation was in 2010 um and that was enforced for two years
38:57 um only because then it was declared unconstitutional basically the government that came in
39:05 around that time their first act was to get rid of that law and then there was a legislative gap
39:11 again and then the piece of legislation that is still in effect up until today was passed in
39:16 2015. so that gives you a kind of idea of the fact that the bulk
39:21 of um second generation so the bulk of children of migrants didn't get access
39:27 to greek citizenship until 2015 onwards which is literally five years ago
39:32 um so that that's where we are now that that legislation is still in in um
39:39 is still in effect it's still that's what we have um till today but that means sorry
39:45 sorry if i could just could i just respond so i it's just um i find this stunning um this story
39:51 and thank you so much um since i have a chance to speak for a minute um
39:56 i'm a s i'm a second generation or maybe third generation greek american
40:02 and i can become a greek citizen and so i find this stunning because of the way the law is
40:09 and so i'm so you're saying now at this point 2015 means that that second generation or
40:16 people children who are born in greece of immigrants can become citizens now is that correct yes because
40:23 greece greece um by constitution is just sanguinis country which basically means
40:29 that it's greek by blood so you have to have a big lineage um so up until 2010 there was no
40:35 acknowledgement for the you know the generation of people being born and raised in greece who are not of greek lineage
40:40 um because nothing was a gap then 2010 was the first law it was passed on the socialist
40:47 government but then it was the law was annulled it was ruled out constitutional two years later and then 2015
40:54 um the syriza government passed the law which is in effect today
40:59 but because of the fact the first law was was only in was only valid for two years
41:04 thinking about the bureaucratic procedures so not many people got it under the first law the bulk of second generation the bulk
41:11 of children of migrants actually have become citizens from 2015 onwards wow thank you thanks very much for
41:18 clearing that up thank you i i also noticed that one of the
41:23 participants mentioned an astronomic amount of money that's required
41:29 for your application something like 700 euros
41:35 for naturalization applications
41:40 for greek standard yeah
41:46 actually yeah when he did that but the the actual um process for second
41:52 generation is 100 euros what about that 700 amount i heard
41:59 that was when he did naturalization so naturalization is a process that was there um regardless it's a process for
42:06 anyone who um has been in the country for an amount of years and has um uh uh you know the required documents
42:15 they can then become a naturalized citizen oh i see oh that's just like ultra different than
42:20 because there was a gap so that because there was nothing else that he could do there was no um legislation for second
42:26 generation um he did naturalization oh i see that's interesting
42:33 okay because that was there regardless but obviously we were advocating for something else because you shouldn't
42:40 have to if you're born and raised in the country you shouldn't naturalize it of course i have a comment
42:48 and question from chris williams first thank you for elias for making the point
42:54 that uh with regard to george floyd it was the victim um who was portrayed as the perpetrator
43:04 do you have any thoughts on how black greek's view arrival black greek new arrival stand
43:11 with other arrivals in the country
43:17 in what terms can be one person around would you like
43:24 to maybe explain your question yes um and by the way a fantastic fantastic
43:31 session and i really hope it continues it's mega important and some people on this call know
43:38 they're a big historical parallels as well um since i've been uh i live in london
43:44 now but but i spend an awful lot of time in greece there's been a lot of movement towards
43:50 greece uh it started with albania there's been a lot more since then
43:55 and i just wondered how you know if there are any thoughts on that any thoughts on whether people are
44:02 treated the same or absolutely anything like that
44:07 well um china okay uh well the the
44:14 the farther um a part you are uh at least
44:21 uh superficially uh from uh the local population uh
44:30 the more you have a different treatment let's say but um
44:36 you mentioned the fact that there was a uh an influx from the albanian uh from the albanian country especially
44:42 during the 90s and to be fair they had um
44:48 a really uh severe uh backflash um
44:56 so she italy and in the media they were portrayed in a really demeaning manner and
45:04 uh people of african origin or eastern asian origins did not have this
45:12 portrayal at the time but still we were not um the population was not large enough
45:19 so the shock the social associated shock was not as uh as impactful gradually the
45:26 topic of this discussion shifted from the eastern european immigrants to the rest
45:32 of the world so over the course of the years they were
45:38 uh they became more accepted the fact that they did not look different especially people from the
45:44 balkans albanians or from the balkans look quite alike as most people look
45:51 so gradually of course the people that were not of
45:57 your centric feature did not have eurocentric features had um were still left behind into the
46:04 inclusion race if this is the discussion that we're we're trying to have yes
46:12 that's absolutely it and and there may have been a part of that um that actually led to a process of
46:18 education but this is a book that's still to be written isn't it there's a lot to be thought about and studied on it
46:29 thank you thank you well i have several other um
46:36 um ah there's another karen newman from karen newman can you speak
46:42 to whether school systems throughout greece have moved to including meaningful
46:47 discussions of race and immigration in their curricular or is it
46:56 that takes care of that unfortunately unfortunately not
47:03 that's what i thought but i thought i would put the question anyway right
47:10 unfortunately no i i think it i i think now um taking into
47:16 consideration how the makeup of the greek populous is changing um it is a matter of urgency for
47:25 the educational system to catch up with that unfortunately it's still so so so behind
47:32 and not just in terms of what's being taught but also in terms of how it's being taught in terms of taking into
47:37 consideration the cultural diversity of students it's like so bad
47:44 unfortunately well we have another question from
47:51 sophia estefa racial discrimination is an aspect of
47:57 social inequalities we all experience do you believe that the organization and
48:02 black lives matter movement with a demand for a better life on the streets
48:08 seem to have created the necessary ferment to expand the struggle and the demands against the exploitation
48:14 of the poor sections of people
48:20 i think that it brought a sense of urgency um like it
48:26 or not by demonstrating and writing people actually start noticing things
48:32 um there have been different steps over the course of the years over the course of decades
48:37 that perhaps did not lived did not were not as impactful over a
48:44 small period of time as those demonstrations were the fact that we're having this
48:50 discussion and we're having discussion and you are mostly based in the united states and we are based in athens greece
48:56 rainy against greece um it's actually a product of of this
49:03 of those of those events um that i i don't believe i think that most
49:10 people tend to put so much um burden on demonstrations
49:16 they are to play they are there to play a specific role and they basically uh
49:22 create some space for people to okay notice that something is going wrong and
49:29 choose what are they what are the different kinds of actions that you can take from their own words so in that sense
49:36 i think that yes they have saved a path that we are responsible to walk on
49:45 and there's a certain sense of solidarity among struggles anyways and looking at it you know
49:50 throughout history um and i i think that the blm movement
49:55 does have the capacity to create um to to expand and you know bring in class
50:03 solidarity and all those other kind of struggles as well um for sure for sure
50:13 i have a question from harry carajas can you comment on social media presence
50:20 that deals with issues of race immigration and citizenship in greece also can you talk to us briefly about
50:26 activist organizations in the country yeah
50:32 sure um conversations in greece on issues of
50:37 race and immigration and citizenship unfortunately are still kind of um lacking in so many areas um the
50:45 conversation is still very much focused on for example racism a like it's still first of all still kind
50:51 of sections not even seen as a whole um so it's like okay
50:58 let's have a conversation on race racism we're not even having conversations on race let's say
51:03 there's a lot there's a lot of lack of terminology um uh immigration as a
51:11 that because there's lack of terminology i'm sorry there's lack of terminology because there's also a different background and
51:17 a different history so um the the
51:22 the concept of race does not exist in the same terms in greece as it exists in the united
51:28 states people know themselves as white as caucasian they just have knowledge themselves of greek
51:33 as a greek and that's the end full stop um so of course there's of course i don't
51:39 know if it's if it's rightfully so but there was a lack of development uh in academic rights
51:45 on academic on that field sorry interrupted yeah no no no that
51:50 that yeah yeah fully agree with that and then immigrate the media in terms
51:57 of how it deals with immigration it's been kind of all tied up into the whole refugee so-called crisis and it's
52:04 completely demonized and dehumanized um and then citizenship now is no longer
52:10 so much i mean when there was no legislation and there was the whole movement towards that
52:16 yes it would you know it had it it did take up space and um
52:22 there was a media presence but now that there is legislation even though the legislation is still lacking there's still gaps um bureaucratically
52:30 speaking it's not being enforced um today we are on a three-year waiting
52:36 uh like somebody who applies for citizenship under that this legislation they will have to wait
52:42 around almost three years so because the whole bureaucratic procedure is just
52:48 so in-depth and um so
52:54 that's as yeah as far as social media plans it's still so much boxed into different boxes and not really even seen
52:59 as at all um the migrant family isn't seen as a whole it's still very much like section policies here and there and
53:06 kind of abstract notions here and there do you know um then activist organizations in the
53:13 country and what in what in what way and there's so many as in greece is a very activist-y
53:19 country um we're always demonstrating about something uh yeah but um
53:28 yeah yeah what sorry how would you like us to talk uh aha harry how would you like us to
53:33 talk about activist organizations in the country
53:40 um can you mute yourself okay here we go um i'm not sure actually but
53:47 um i'm just curious about what is happening in athens
53:53 and also um i wanted to connect it with social media presence in the sense that uh jeffrey and i are colleagues and we
54:00 both work uh in spain and um there is an afro-spanish
54:08 twitter for example there's several several pages that work um that produce material that contribute
54:16 to the discussion on race and citizenship and the issues that the afro-spanish community experience in spain and i was wondering
54:23 if there's something similar in greece basically ah okay um unfortunately not
54:29 we're not so organized in that sense i mean that you know so much of the focus
54:37 had been on securing our legal status in the country and that takes up so much
54:43 energy and so much space and we um and not resources
54:48 and resources exactly second generation as a whole you know the fight up until recently was so much focused on
54:55 securing legal status access to citizenship and that is just such an orders procedure that now is when
55:03 we now that that has happened and we brought forth legislation um that covers us now the shift now
55:10 there's able to be a shift of focus on to our societal position
55:15 um in in the country and that's why you're seeing things like these this happening so i mean afrogreeks is
55:22 not necessarily like an organized um the only organized um
55:28 entity would be second generation there's an organization that came out of the movement which is called generation 2.0 for rice
55:34 equality and diversity um that's as far as an organized
55:41 entity that talks about citizenship immigration and all that stuff okay thank you
55:48 thank you and there are only communities communities from different countries of
55:53 africa but did not act in a unanimous way unanimous i mean like they're not is not a coalition of all
56:00 black people of greece they're like a genuine nigerian community the senegalese community etc that
56:07 operate on their own with their own in their own structure
56:14 well i think uh well i i think i only have time i don't
56:21 know how much longer do you all get wanna want this to go uh obviously this is
56:28 all kinds of new questions frank is telling me well maybe we should have a couple more questions and bring it to a close but
56:33 but i think i should you know you know include a couple more things here um okay there's one from jeff
56:40 another one from german free that says i think it's important to nuance the notion of arrival
56:46 it becomes harder to progress the afro-greek cause if we think of them as perpetually
56:52 arriving definitely definitely and i mean
56:58 unfortunately we're still so very much seen as a as as as arrivals
57:03 as as migrants for example we're very much still grouped into those conversations
57:09 um that's because we're not starting to stay sorry that's because we're just starting
57:16 to stay oh yeah for so many years people were just coming here in greece starting and leaving
57:21 my parents were part of a generation yeah they were just one of the few people that stayed and most of their
57:28 mates just left left to to either to go back to africa or to head to other different european cities
57:34 this is actually the second influx which was during the 90s where part people were they those were the
57:41 good that decided to stay and actually do something out of it and their children seem to be interested in
57:46 that in doing that but most of them are like under 25 years old most of them most of
57:53 the most of these the kids of this generation are like under 25 years old so now we'll see
57:58 what uh what will be the what will be their next steps and what
58:04 will be their their access the access will be given
58:09 if the legal status will actually have an effect on the future and the presence
58:16 of africa or people of africa origin here in greece yeah no exactly
58:24 that's very interesting uh that's that's very interesting i was struck by how brilliant
58:30 how charismatic even this little sliver of this this small seven seven people
58:37 and and you and you too you know how incredibly talented how incredibly greek you know the greeks
58:44 better than mine at this point you know because you know they actually live here as opposed to
58:51 you know and they're truly truly you know part of the society in many ways
58:56 uh so you know staying is another you know truly the being here is a part of it
59:03 anyway so ah here's another question okay there's a
59:08 couple more and then we'll have to bring it to a close okay this is another question from paula
59:14 uh the film talked about microaggressions in everybody everyday life
59:19 in the u.s is there a parallel in greece with kaved well paula would you like to
59:26 explain that you know um i'm not sure i understand well well how about you know or
59:34 okay so mike my question really goes to the heart of the of how the invisibility is
59:42 very visible i think i heard jackie say that where all of the other conditions that
59:48 create this silent narrative within the community
59:53 are are afro-greeks getting the kinds of medical attention
59:59 do they have the medical access is there any kind of intrepidation about
1:00:05 vaccine and is it the same parallel that exists in african countries in
1:00:12 the caribbeans or in the us
1:00:19 um i i don't know if i would be able to have like a concrete
1:00:25 opinion on that if that makes sense i mean the kind of medical discrepancies
1:00:30 that you see in the u.s with how black people are treated for example we do see them here in greece as well
1:00:38 however um in greece um healthcare is accessible
1:00:43 um if you are working you have health care um so i don't know yet if we're at a i
1:00:50 don't feel like as if i'm at a stage where i can actually have an opinion on how covert is affecting like for example the after
1:00:56 greek community if that makes sense um [Music] yeah okay all right thank you
1:01:04 thank you well i think we may have to
1:01:13 bring this to a close i am very sorry and let's do some other uh some other
1:01:21 uh this has been a wonderful discussion and i am very grateful to irini and
1:01:27 jackie for enlightening us and for their multiple talents
1:01:34 and i was we kind of tokenized you again of course you know uh and it's
1:01:40 the nature of these things uh but i am extremely grateful that you were able to
1:01:46 be with us and um thank you very very much
1:01:55 surprised okay i hope we can continue this conversation and we're all
1:02:00 extremely grateful to met you and hope to see more of you and hopefully there will be this will be
1:02:07 an opportunity for more good things to happen collaborations or whatever let me echo vessel keys thanks also
1:02:14 thank you so much this was a wonderful wonderful event i really enjoyed it i want to also thank
1:02:20 the african studies program who helped support this and tavi ahern thanks tabi
1:02:29 all right great thank you all so much for coming and keep your eyes out for other euro
1:02:36 events thank you so much for having us thank
1:02:42 you

Description of the video:

0:00 good morning to those of you in the united states and good afternoon to those of you in europe calimera
0:05 calispera my name is franklin hess and i am the director of the institute for european studies at indiana university
0:12 bloomington i also coordinate the modern greek program here it is my great pleasure to
0:17 be able to host the inaugural future of the european union mini-conference we have created this mini-conference to
0:24 bring academics and decision-makers into dialogue in order to further good governance and cooperation and to raise
0:30 awareness about issues facing the european union both on the iu campus and
0:35 more broadly our first session which took place yesterday focused on what covet 19 hath
0:41 wrought how the pandemic is altering the european union it was a most interesting discussion
0:48 please keep an eye out for the recording of it on the institute uh for european studies website as well as on our
0:54 facebook page i am told that it is available today's session on the transatlantic
1:00 relationship in the wake of the us elections has the potential to be even more interesting
1:06 before we start i'd like to welcome any of our military partners from active duty and or the indiana national guard
1:13 units that might be in attendance today for for this session we very much appreciate your interest
1:20 i'd also like to acknowledge my co-organizers of this event ana diamando pulu and evie jazzy andreyo
1:27 of the victio network for reform in greece in europe thanks also though to the jean-monet
1:33 program whose center of excellent grant has provided the funds to make this event possible
1:38 last i'd like to acknowledge my assistant director heather doomling and the staff members of the hamilton luger
1:45 school of global and international studies and the institute of european studies who have worked so tirelessly to
1:52 make this event happen we are going to begin our discussion today with
1:58 ambassador stavros lambrinilis it is my great honor to be able to welcome him
2:04 to indiana university bloomington albeit virtually and to the hamilton luger school of global and international
2:10 studies lambrinidis has had a long and storied career in politics
2:16 uh other highlights in addition to his current position include serving as greece's minister of foreign affairs and
2:22 as the eu's first special representative for human rights
2:28 there are many many more lines in ambassador lambrini this is cv but rather than enumerate them i think it is
2:34 more important that we hear for him that we hear from him so i see the floor to ambassador landry
2:41 navy thank you uh dean feinstein and uh and to frank hess as well for making this
2:48 virtual visit possible it's always great to be together with
2:54 chris van hollen it's a great honor and a great pleasure to see you again and and of course i'm delighted to have
3:01 so many compatriots around dimitris kurkula certainly in this particular panel but uh ana diamando
3:07 pulu uh george la constantino they're very good friends um and um so
3:14 great to be here and if you allow me uh in feinstein before i um [Music]
3:19 plunge into the topic today transatlantic relations of course after the 2020 elections um i would like to offer my
3:27 sincere admiration for lee hamilton who not only represented indiana as a member
3:33 of congress for several decades but also went on to do so much more for this country
3:39 um including working on 911 commission his role with the world justice project
3:45 to strengthen international law rule of law and
3:50 frankly his willingness to reach out across the aisle including in his collaboration with
3:57 senator richard luger to set up this school so um really great to be here
4:04 uh now dear friends uh from the european perspective we have uh
4:09 we have looked at a remarkable election here in this country unfold
4:15 that highlights the resilience and the strength of u.s democracy i think it's quite
4:20 remarkable to see that a record number of people voted both in person and by mail-in ballots
4:28 uh in the midst of a pandemic um it was remarkable to see the uh the
4:34 amazing work of everyone from vote counters to volunteers from both parties uh coming out
4:40 trying to uh support uh the process and um uh to watch or glued in our tv screens
4:47 uh all the analysts uh the you know the deep democratic analysis of what was happening i i don't think that uh people in europe
4:54 ever knew the names of so many u.s counties as they do today
5:00 and i have to say that that's important uh because there are people watching out there uh the u.s election and they do not
5:06 always do it in the same positive strong way that that europe does
5:13 they have been trying for a while to uh to peddle narratives that democracies are not working
5:19 for their people that maybe it's better to have a little less democracy and a little more stability
5:25 and what have you and uh so what happens even now uh after the uh the election is uh is
5:32 hugely important uh for me uh for us uh in the the signaling we gave on the
5:37 strength of our democratic institutions in in our respective continents and countries
5:44 i think a second general conclusion is that is that we understand that this country is not the same as it
5:51 was a few years back and uh probably will not uh ever be exactly
5:56 the same there are deep uh issues that are being discussed in this country including among the
6:02 electorate and the voters deep splits when it comes to
6:09 everything from healing wounds of globalization and deindustrialization
6:16 in the country to economic inequalities to regional um
6:21 uh splits uh to generational splits uh to the to the to the work ahead
6:27 to deal with racial inequalities uh to uh uh
6:34 virtually everything you can imagine uh this is not that different from europe we face many of these issues as well but
6:40 we see that kind of um strength and difficulty sometimes of the
6:46 argument here as well and a third i suppose point to uh to come
6:53 out with is to um is to look at the president-elect president-elect biden
6:58 for decades in public service for decades uh this
7:04 strong [Music] supporter of ultimate system the united states built
7:09 after the second world war of the importance of building alliances and certainly rebooting the the
7:16 transatlantic alliance but at the same time we have to understand we in europe as well that we are not the
7:22 same the u.s not the same the world is not the same and we have to be able to come and offer the united states in my view
7:29 at least a new transatlantic deal we have to understand that
7:35 many people in the united states while understanding the importance of world alliances and european leadership
7:41 in them may want to take a break from the us you know leading the world in every
7:47 aspect and they want to have allies uh that are both willing but also able uh to contribute uh to that uh partnership
7:55 because it has to be a partnership and here europe is different and i think to a large extent in a much
8:02 better position than it was also a few years back i think the financial crisis has
8:08 has matured us real fast we we're much more united a much stronger economic continent than we used
8:15 to be the recovery plans that we decided unanimously at the eu
8:22 for the first time create the possibility to borrow collectively in the world markets leveraging the
8:28 uh collective economic strength of europe the second biggest economy in the world after united states free open
8:35 economy in the world to distribute help
8:40 to our member states in massive amounts during the covet crisis itself and as we're trying to deal with the aftermath
8:48 all this in the middle of a very unpleasant process the brexit process which in fact not only has not weakened
8:54 europe but you go around and you pull every uh every one of our 28 27 member states and
9:00 you see that there are increasing numbers of people vast increased numbers of people
9:06 supporting the european union and their country's membership in it at the same time europe that has in the
9:13 past few years launched a process of becoming much more united in the
9:19 military context as well we are investing more together
9:24 producing more together deploying more together in a neighborhood and around the world and that is very good news
9:31 for the united states as well okay so what should the new transatlantic uh
9:37 offer transatlantic partnership uh contain uh in my view um
9:43 one thing that the butt administration will have to deal with immediately and we are dealing with in europe is the consequences of cobit
9:50 and it goes without saying that those are both health consequences and economic consequences among others
9:57 when it comes to health it is supremely important in our view
10:02 for the united states and europe to send a very strong message to the world that we are not simply looking inward to our
10:09 own people of course we we are doing this but we also have a very firm eye turned
10:16 to the need of other countries in the world less fortunate than us uh to be able to have strong health
10:23 systems that deal with this crisis a strong social safety net that they don't have today to be able to deal with
10:28 economic consequences and certainly affordable access to vaccines when they develop i think they're very good news
10:34 recently uh about uh about a vaccine a cooperation between the us and and and
10:40 europe and germany uh is excellent but through the kovacs facility we that
10:46 we have set up as eu [Music] we are hoping to be able to make those
10:51 vaccines as soon as possible available to everyone that's a super strong message we have to
10:56 send to the world and the eu has for its team europe already collected 16 billion
11:02 dollars in a major fundraising exercise back in may
11:07 to fan uh all those different vaccines out there and treatments more than 35 billion dollars to
11:13 different countries around the world to support the health and economic systems and of course the who as well
11:20 uh which is at the front lines of this so uh focusing on that as eu and u.s is
11:25 going to be huge uh in my view and trying to see and trying to set up in the context of the g7 g20 i would i
11:32 would propose to you as well a mechanism to deal with future pandemics
11:37 we have to take the leadership here we have learned the lessons what do we do with vaccines what do we do with supply
11:42 chains all these issues are out there and we can do it a second
11:48 major focus should be economic recovery i described a little bit what the eu has
11:53 done up to now uh to deal with that uh to deal with that recovery but what i do want to say and i think that's quite
12:00 important is that we cannot forget that what we achieve uh in economic recovery is not
12:06 simply just good for us but fundamentally good for each other we are the biggest economic archery in the
12:12 world the eu and the u.s our economies uh more than uh 50 of the world's gdp
12:19 in in trade is the eu and the and um
12:25 this has uh very strong consequences even for uh for hoosiers
12:30 so um i mean i i do want to mention uh that i'm very pleased that your governor eric
12:37 holcomb uh has gone on trade missions to europe
12:42 uh uh virtually every year assists in the office um
12:47 indiana exports 10 billion uh dollars worth of goods to the european union
12:53 mostly soybeans pharmaceuticals other things and there's
12:58 close to 39 billion dollars of european union company investment in indiana creating in total
13:06 um from exports to europe and from investments here more than 120 000 jobs
13:12 in indiana itself indiana is part and an important part of the huge
13:18 picture of eu us economic cooperation so if we recover fast that is the best
13:25 outside influence positive influence to the u.s recovery as well and vice versa
13:31 and we have to deal in this context as well with trade irritants i think we are very ready to discuss
13:36 with the biden administration the importance of eliminating all those trade energies on the table
13:44 and moving on to a positive agenda including on how to deal with the forest as opposed to the trees the big issue
13:51 with china that is not playing by the rules uh and that has to be dealt with by the two biggest free and open
13:56 economies in the world and only together can we do this truly uh effectively
14:03 one issue on the table is a dispute on airbus and boeing i don't want to get in too many details on that but i'm just
14:09 saying that both europe and the u.s lost their cases to the wto we both were found to subsidize
14:19 the only thing makes sense here is instead of repairing tariffs against airbus a few months back
14:26 in spite of our calls not to do so now we're in a position to settle this case and it's not just a trade issue
14:33 it's also a geostrategic issue as we are fighting over this
14:39 china is building a hundred percent subsidized wide-body aircraft that could be flooding the market in china itself
14:45 and the rest of the world in uh in a few years time so i do very much hope that in a number
14:52 of issues that have been irritants up to now we find solutions quickly and we europeans are entirely ready to do this
14:58 in the in the spirit of mutual benefit and then that will work together to reform not destroy the wto
15:06 another issue that we can and will and should be able to have a new transatlantic deal on is the environment
15:14 the environment is uh is a real existential threat it's not a hoax
15:20 and we have decided in the european union that by 2050 we will try to be the first uh
15:27 carbon neutral economy in the world uh we are setting very ambitious targets but something that we're also doing is
15:34 making sure that people are not left behind we have a fund in place a multi-billion
15:39 euro fund to support the transition for those areas in europe and those workers in europe who will lose their jobs
15:47 this is a reality and we cannot allow the markets at least in our estimation
15:52 to be making those decisions we have to make sure that we governments understand that unless this is a fair
15:59 transition for all it will not be a transition for anyone and this is the kind of cooperation and
16:06 discussion we have in the u.s here's what we have discovered in europe when it comes to climate from 1990 to today
16:12 our carbon emissions in europe have gone down by about 22 percent
16:18 guess how much had gdp has gone down at the same time well it hasn't it's gone up
16:26 by over 60 percent reducing emissions is not a killer for your
16:32 economy on the contrary it is a boost for your economy and this is the place that we are in today
16:38 and american leadership in paris at the paris agreement together with europe
16:43 ensuring also that other countries in the world come on board especially the g20 countries
16:49 we've seen announcements we have to make sure that they actually are followed by real action uh by uh china by south korea by south
16:56 africa um but there are so many other countries out there in the world that we have by example to push and bring in
17:01 this direction now um really i mentioned defense so i don't want to go into that again but there's a
17:08 big discussion to be had but very quickly a foreign policy issue and a digital issue
17:14 the digital issue first we're not simply in a battle of uh trade
17:21 and trade unfair trade around the world today with others who don't see um free and open economies as the way to go
17:29 we're also in a battle of values keep in mind every time that we export a particular product in a container
17:36 in that container we also export our values respecting labor rights
17:41 respecting environmental standards not destroying the environment to produce something quick and cheap
17:47 respecting free and open markets fighting corruption all these things that's a reality it's out there
17:53 and um when it comes to values nothing exemplifies this
18:00 crossroads in our view more intensely than digital
18:05 our world is turning and will become entirely dominated by artificial intelligence by robotics by all these
18:11 things and somebody has set the standards human-centric standards for digital now
18:17 i don't mean to simplify the digital issue it's very complicated but here it is that we need americans
18:24 and europeans to determine together really quickly a blueprint for digital around the world
18:32 whether it is for digital infrastructure whether it is for protecting that infrastructure whether it is for
18:38 security whether it is for data privacy and exchange of data whether it is indeed for ai and how one
18:44 is allowed to use a camera that is stuff that we have to do together and finally foreign policy and
18:50 multilateralism dear friends around the world today we see a number of
18:56 mini or maxi regional powers uh deciding that might is right
19:02 and uh some of them claim that they're getting the the cue from the u.s and the
19:08 u.s withdrawing in the past few years from a number of multilateral institutions of rule of law whether it's the human
19:14 rights council or uh or so many others um we know
19:20 that unless we become much stronger militarily including in europe we will not be able to address this
19:26 but we also do know that in the end of the day if might is right is the game if
19:31 rule of law international law is abandoned if international multilateral institutions are considered to be a
19:38 luxury that we can do without then we're not alone
19:43 china in the south china sea today is ignoring the law of the sea
19:48 and feeling that it can do because it thinks that others are also not following international law
19:53 turkey in eastern med is ignoring the law of the sea and deploying law and thinking in its own region that it is
20:00 the big bully it can do it russia in the same way is acting uh uh uh is acting uh in uh in
20:07 our broader neighborhood and around the world uh like a new uh power that uh
20:13 that can uh use might as right so it is americans and europeans now
20:19 that have an opportunity to uh reform indeed to strengthen the multilateral system is not perfect
20:26 but we to ensure that as we are engaging in a major battle of values
20:32 uh in addition to everything else we have a seat at the table of those multilateral institutions and we guide
20:38 them as we did before we don't leave black holes of power to others to fail so
20:43 um boy that was long and i apologize uh but and you have to cut me off there
20:49 um but i i i i thought that maybe it's a rather comprehensive but i
20:55 hope helpful uh way to frame the discussion
21:00 i think that was a perfect start to our discussion thank you um ambassador
21:05 lambre nidi for uh for uh uh giving uh illuminating so many topics uh
21:11 and uh i'm sure our panelists will will fill in and uh expand on on some of the points that you
21:18 were you were making so i think that was a perfect way to start the conversation uh ambassador
21:24 lamborghini you elucidated so many topics and uh opened up so many
21:29 pathways for for our other panelists to elaborate upon um at this point it was my equally great
21:36 honor to be able to introduce senator chris van hollen from the state of maryland um which is my birth state
21:45 senator van hollen is a rising star in the democratic party among his many areas of expertise in domestic and
21:51 foreign policy is the mediterranean an area of growing conflict over the past four years i look very much forward to
21:57 hearing his thoughts well thank you let me thank you frank um hess for moderating this and for your
22:04 leadership there at indiana university and for all uh the organizers and my friend stabros
22:11 i think you set the table very well and i want to thank uh ambassador lamber nedes as well as
22:18 ambassador kukulas it's good to see you um and to master feinstein
22:25 thank you for uh your leadership there at the hamilton luger school and to professor zayak it's
22:31 great to be on a panel uh with you and i i want to start out um as the
22:37 ambassador did just a reflection on the great leadership of lee hamilton and richard lugar and i
22:44 don't know if lee hamilton is on this conference if he's not if you could please convey
22:51 my very best wishes these are two leaders who in my view are role models for all of us they're
22:57 certainly personal role models for me um ambassador lambornidis outlined some
23:04 of lee hamilton's you know biography and accomplishments let me just say that
23:10 as a citizen of the united states i don't think you could ask for somebody who better represented
23:17 what you want in a public servant a person of principle of integrity uh a thoughtful
23:24 person uh someone who engaged in civil uh discussions and was determined so i
23:30 just wanna uh thank indiana university for publishing this and richard luger
23:36 you know before i ever ran for congress myself i served on the staff of the senate foreign relations committee
23:43 i served for with a a liberal republican member from maryland a mac matthias enter matthias and i watched as
23:52 chairman lugar at that time chairman of the senate foreign relations committee steered through the legislation to
23:59 impose sanctions on the apartheid regime in south africa
24:04 he did it at a time when the reagan administration was opposed to that legislation
24:10 so he took on his own party on principle and not only got it passed through the
24:16 senate and then the house we were able to pass it but ronald reagan president reagan vetoed
24:22 that legislation and then dick lugar uh rallied everybody to override
24:27 the veto of a president of his own party so these are two really great leaders in
24:32 indiana university uh um uh really great that you set up something
24:37 uh in their name and i'm really glad to join you um for this forum um the the
24:43 only second thoughts i had was that indiana university beat georgetown university in the finals
24:50 of a soccer game my son went to georgetown university was on that soccer team uh we lost one for nothing one to
24:58 nothing but um in any event we've forgiven indiana university for that so listen let me
25:04 just outline um a few a few things regarding the future of the transatlantic uh relationship
25:12 and first of all you know make no mistake uh joe biden will be sworn in as
25:18 president united states on january 20th i i do believe that this uh false
25:23 narrative being perpetrated uh by the current president um and with the complicity
25:30 of uh current republican members of the senate is doing damage uh it's doing
25:35 damage to the united states at home and abroad in undermining
25:40 public confidence here in the outcome and our democracy and
25:46 as the ambassador indicated there are many countries around the world that want to undermine
25:51 uh democratic countries and the ideals we stand for and this simply
25:57 uh aids and abets those who are the enemies of of democracy
26:03 i think it is telling that immediately after the results came in
26:08 uh the leaders of european our european partners and european countries
26:15 immediately recognized the outcome and sent their congratulations to president
26:21 elect joe biden and vice president-elect kamala paris uh the uk france germany
26:28 greece and of course uh the eu and many others uh and those countries that have
26:33 not yet acknowledged the outcome uh include russia vladimir putin president xi in
26:40 china uh the north korean regime so you can see the pattern here uh as who is
26:46 respecting the outcome of democratic elections uh and who is not um and that
26:52 also goes to this topic that we're talking about because joe biden will work to restore
27:02 the vibrancy of the transatlantic relationship we've heard from the current president
27:08 you know repeatedly attacks on the eu calling the eu a quote foe
27:15 and arguing that the eu was quote really formed so they could treat us badly
27:20 unquote and of course referred to nato on several occasions is obsolete
27:26 and of course back in july ordered the withdrawal of seven of 12 000 american forces there and has reduced uh the
27:33 american financial commitment uh to the front-line uh states um
27:39 all of that will change both in tone and in uh action uh i believe with uh
27:46 with the a biden administration uh and
27:51 i think that we had lots of good democratic candidates running for president uh but probably none of them
27:58 were more suited for this particular moment on this particular topic
28:03 that we're discussing because obviously you know joe biden served as eight years
28:09 as vice president and over decades in the senate including as chairman of the senate foreign relations committee
28:15 and has personal relationships with many of these leaders at deep knowledge and as you know is already reaching out to
28:21 help repair and reset reset the transatlantic relationship
28:26 i'm just going to tick off a couple of areas and not go into great detail about them where we can expect to see
28:33 immediate change first on fighting the pandemic as the ambassador discussed we now will have a
28:40 president who takes this seriously who will listen to the scientists and the public health
28:46 experts work with our european partners uh essentially uh you know
28:54 recommit to the world health organization and participate in that international and global leadership uh
29:00 once again second on climate change and master of course
29:06 referenced the fact that we know this is not a hoax this is a very serious threat to the planet and joe biden will of
29:13 course immediately rejoin the paris climate accords and beyond that has a very ambitious agenda program
29:20 to deal with climate change and recognizes that it is an economic opportunity and if the united states doesn't
29:27 accelerate its efforts in this area it will only hurt us economically when it comes to global
29:33 economic the new start agreement the
29:38 president-elect biden has said that it's in our interest to uh essentially re-up uh for another five
29:46 years under the new start agreement um i fully agree it's in our strategic interest to do that um in the united
29:52 states uh we can meet our nuclear modernization uh
29:58 targets and fulfill our full program uh and it's important to constrain uh
30:03 the russian strategic forces uh and so they will i think move very quickly in
30:09 that regard and when it comes to the inf treaty you certainly would not have seen the
30:14 abrupt pull out without adequate consultation with our european partners um under abiden harris uh administration
30:23 with respect to nato um president president biden will push our nato partners uh to commit the two
30:29 percent of gdp after all this was um this was a commitment that obama
30:36 negotiated back in 2014 this was not something new under the trump administration so
30:42 he will do that but he will do that in the spirit of cooperation not confrontation
30:49 iran and the jcpoa this is obviously going to be a big issue
30:54 to renew uh the jcpoa it's going to be
31:01 it's going to be tricky to see exactly how we work with the iranians and our european partners
31:08 in a step-by-step process to re-establish that agreement
31:14 but we want to thank our european partners for keeping that
31:19 alive and going during these four years of constant assault from the current administration in
31:25 washington in my view the trump administration's approach to iran has been a total and complete disaster they
31:32 accomplished none of their goals we now have a regime in tehran that
31:37 where the hardliners have the upper hand we have divided ourselves not iran we've
31:44 isolated ourselves and iran has more nuclear enriched nuclear material today than it did four years ago so in every
31:51 measure that was a failed strategy and we will now work with our european partners to
31:56 try to reestablish that let me just end with china and the set of economic issues that
32:04 the ambassador laid out i i think this is really the main a major challenge for the united states
32:12 and the eu going forward the ambassador mentioned a number of bilateral issues airbus trade
32:18 issues and we do need to resolve those i also agree with them that we need to deal with this
32:24 issue of standards uh with regard to the digital world and cyber
32:30 uh when it comes to china uh especially with respect to the economic
32:36 challenge we've got to work together the eu's a country based on market
32:41 economies the united states is the same the reality is if we don't work together
32:46 china will continue to use its governmental power
32:52 to create unfair advantages
32:57 for china's exports and we need to be very deliberate
33:03 and we need to work together here otherwise we're going to see the continuing situations like the huawei
33:10 situation and i i will end by noting that this area of
33:15 confronting china in a smart way has strong bipartisan support
33:22 in the united states congress this is not just a republican issue or a democratic issue
33:27 and it is an area where i think we're going to have to be very creative
33:32 in working together the eu and the united states i think it is a a major challenge
33:39 not just with respect to the political and military issues but uh possibly even more so uh when it
33:47 comes to uh the economic uh challenges that we're facing when we're dealing with a very
33:54 strong economic power that uses its government
34:00 leverage to gain unfair advantages so let me end there a lot of work to do but
34:06 we are turning a new page i understand that it's going to be difficult uh
34:11 to you know provide confidence to our european partners
34:17 but this administration will do everything it can to work in cooperation not confrontation
34:24 on issues we will still have disagreements uh but i think we recognize that we have
34:29 more shared values uh and interests than we do a disagreement so we look forward
34:35 to a new chapter thank you
34:40 thank you senator van hollen um i would like to call our audience's
34:45 attention to the q a button at the bottom of the of the screen
34:51 at any point during our discussion today you are welcome to write questions and deposit them in the
34:58 q a i we will not take questions until everyone has spoken um but uh i think
35:05 it's better idea to get the question written while it's fresh in your mind uh then to wait until the end so please uh
35:11 start your questions coming uh at this point i'd like to give the floor to
35:16 eustina zayak who is a visiting professor of political science at iu bloomington
35:21 and a european security senior research fellow her research and teaching focuses on
35:26 international relations with special emphasis on international security and foreign policy analysis her regional
35:33 focus ranges from the baltics and poland to the mediterranean so i give the floor to eustina
35:42 uh thank you very much uh frank uh and thank you for inviting me to this panel
35:48 i really feel privileged uh to to participate in in such distinguished
35:53 palace uh so for the us for the relations transatlantic relations i do share the
36:00 view of ambassador lambridini and the senator van hollen that
36:06 with this election there is a huge expectation for the new opening of the
36:12 relations between the united states and the european union so what is very much expected
36:19 i believe its expectation of the professionalism and predictability and
36:25 much more partnership from from the united states that it was not the case in the previous four years
36:32 um from the european union sites uh it was quite clear that shortly after it was
36:40 announced that the joe biden got this uh 270 votes that the leaders the
36:46 european leaders congratulate and they were happy to underline that you
36:51 know the the united states is and will be the the european
36:56 um the the european uh biggest and the closest uh uh um ally for for for europe yeah so
37:05 both like markel uh angela merkel and the president macron they underline it
37:12 and it's very clear yes so so we see that from the both sides is this readiness for for cooperation and this
37:19 is the will for cooperate and to renew this this relations and i believe that
37:26 this is very important yeah because us as
37:31 it was said today uh that i mean we cannot expect that that
37:38 all problems will disappear because of course there is quite a lot of challenges that both sides need to face
37:45 uh but uh what is really optimists and i share with the senator van hollen that
37:51 it will be by cooperation not by confrontation yeah and among those challenges that has already been
37:58 mentioned and i do believe that they are really important from covet 19 pandemic from from the trade issue digital issue
38:06 let me also add to this uh to this long list i would even say like brexit is
38:12 also another issue that will be you know very soon um you know that the uk is going to
38:20 leave in january and still there is no the the agreement between the european union and
38:26 the uh and the uk about the future trade relations so so this is very important
38:32 also what the european needs to tackle but the us may have its role and then
38:38 also about when we talk about russia this is of course the start agreement but also the conflict in ukraine is
38:45 going on another issue that now is the belarus uh and the
38:52 you know the protests uh in the belarus and the joe biden and one of the priority of the joe biden presidency
38:59 will be to to focus and to support the democratic forces and the promotion of
39:04 democracy so this is also the case okay how the american administration is going to
39:10 tackle this the for example the the belarus case also in the context of the relations
39:16 with uh with russia another point is that the nationalist
39:21 and the populist forces in the european union um that that trump was really a supporter
39:29 for for those forces uh cooperating closely um that
39:35 actually the influence on the disintegration of the european union so now there is the hope that it will
39:42 change that the the washington will not support the disintegration forces but integration
39:48 forces within within the european union and i believe this is also very important when we talk about the climate
39:54 politics also the energy politics and let me just focus more on the one
40:01 specific issue um that it's about the north stream too that it's urgent issue uh with the
40:08 relations between the us and and germany but also as a whole the european union
40:14 but very much about the germany so as we know that this uh pipeline that
40:19 has been built between germany and and russia has been almost completed so now
40:25 it has been completed in more than 90 percent i guess 94
40:30 but the project has been on hold because of the threat from the trump
40:36 administration that the companies that construct the the the pipeline uh will
40:42 be under the american sanctions um so
40:49 now you know the the almost completed project is on hold and the germany and the united states they have
40:56 really different interests with this with this project um so germany uh and the german
41:01 government expressed its intention to complete it because of the
41:06 economic reasons very much that also linked to the climate policy of of
41:13 of germany uh even after the poisoning of the russian
41:19 opposition leader alexey navalny and the huge pressure on angela merkel from
41:26 both domestic pressure and international pressure european pressure she announced
41:31 that she really wants to complete uh complete the the north stream uh no
41:36 stream too um so as i said it's it's for germany it's important from the economic
41:43 reason also you know this is this was very expensive
41:48 project so it cost like 10 10 billion dollars i believe and
41:54 now will be the the the you know the question if those companies who are involved in
42:00 building the the project would take the germany to the tribunal court uh if the
42:06 project would be abundant yes so this is the this is the question mark what will
42:12 be will be done about about that because the united states has got a different
42:17 interest by them and joe biden is against the the continuation of the north stream too
42:24 uh first because of course this will enhance the russia economy
42:30 that based very much on the on the export of of gas and oil [Music]
42:36 second it will make the european energy market even more dependent from
42:44 the russia gas also because this is the security threat for ukraine um for
42:53 baltic states and for poland that are very much opposed to this project
42:58 and you know that also united states is interested in continuation the
43:04 selling the lng the liquid gas to the central to the central europe yes so so
43:09 these are really like like a different different interests so since three years the united states
43:16 has been involved in the three sis initiative this is the institution um of
43:22 cooperation between 12 central european countries um and the main goal is to
43:28 develop that the [Music] energy transportation and digital infrastructure uh so so i bo i i believe
43:36 that this is this is also quite important uh
43:41 institution and and benefit a beneficial institution for for the for the united
43:47 for the united states um the three initiatives is actually funded by the united states um
43:56 and the good point i think here and quite optimistic point is that also this institution can be like an instrument of
44:03 making pressure on the central european countries especially those countries who violate
44:10 um you know the rule of law and the human rights very much i'm thinking
44:15 about poland um so you know i even believe that pressure from washington
44:21 could be more effective in terms of the polish government than depression from brussels yeah so so this
44:28 i think is also quite good uh instrument for for for washington for the united
44:34 states to influence um to influence um and to mitigate you know the
44:41 that those those uh changes that that have been doing in the in the
44:46 central european in the central european countries so i believe i will stop here
44:52 and for the rest for the discussion so thank you frank
44:57 thank you eustina we're getting some excellent questions trickling in with the q a button at the bottom please keep
45:04 them coming at this point i would like to give the podium to
45:10 lee feinstein who is the founding dean of the hamilton luger school of global and international studies
45:16 fleinstein has held senior positions in both barack obama and hillary clinton's campaigns and he has held positions in
45:23 both the departments of state and uh defense and served as the ambassador
45:28 to poland from 2009 to 2012.
45:36 that's my cue to take the mute button off uh thanks very much uh frank
45:42 congratulations on a great mini conference um frank's institute for european studies is one of 11 institutes
45:49 here that uh are designated by our department of education as uh
45:54 national resource centers and we're very proud of that and we're also very proud that frank's institute is a monet center
46:00 of excellence so thanks very much uh ambassador uh la pre uh la merdi uh
46:07 la bernidi and uh and uh to the eu as well uh stavros thank you very much so uh senator
46:15 holland it's very good to see you again um you may not remember but you gave me some very good advice about how to maintain
46:22 my day job while pursuing my uh studies at georgetown law center just
46:28 after you you gave me some advice about when and when not to attend
46:34 which i took very much to heart so i'm just telling my students that
46:39 that's a secret just between us thank you very much um
46:45 uh so um uh i just wanted to focus um
46:52 on um the the most fundamental point which is
46:57 that there will be challenges uh between the united states and the european union going forward there will be differences
47:03 within the european union it's not monolithic of course uh and uh and there are differences that exist now and uh
47:10 professor zions did a very good job outlining some of those as well as did um as the ambassador
47:17 uh but the main point uh and senator van hollen uh made this very clearly the main point
47:24 is it's hard to overstate uh the differences in how usual
47:29 eu relations are going to be approached in a new biden administration u.s allies
47:34 in europe will be treated uh as trusted friends and partners uh not as adversaries
47:41 uh nato will be an organization that the united states seeks to strengthen and
47:47 update and yes of course there'll be uh concerns about reaching the two percent uh but the goal will not be to target or
47:55 penalize or even destroy the organization as it uh has been for much
48:00 of the last four years and transatlantic relations are going to be a focus of a new biden administration
48:09 um and especially in the first few months in this effort to try to rebuild
48:14 uh maybe to build back better to coin a phrase
48:20 so the challenges are real uh but the challenges are happy persons problems i
48:26 would say and they don't uh compare with what a second term of the current
48:31 administration would have meant for uh transatlantic relations
48:37 um at the same time it's not
48:43 uh it can't be and it won't be a return to the past it's just that's not even possible if it were
48:50 uh desired um some people talk about a return of the blob uh as well kind of a criticism of um of
48:58 people who've held these positions before and i guess what i would say is if the blob means the return of people
49:04 who have knowledge and experience then welcome back and i also think that the new
49:10 administration's made a very strong commitment to diversity and to bringing new voices into the discussion and i
49:16 think that's real and will be uh visible um
49:23 it's important uh in looking at the transatlantic relationship to recognize the forces that have been driving
49:29 politics in this country for many years not just the last four years and forces that are felt not just here
49:36 but across the transatlantic space and globally and these are forces that are
49:42 important to uh everyone on this call and to uh the people of uh all the countries in
49:48 the transatlantic space who care about the trajectory of democracy um
49:53 as this audience knows um democracy and its is in its 14th year of
49:58 decline according to freedom house and others and there are indications that this decline is
50:04 not just a recession but maybe even a growing anti-democratic global wave this is
50:11 something that has to be of great concern to all of us and so shoring up democracies in our own
50:16 countries and helping to make democracy deliver at home
50:22 is a stated priority of the of the biden administration including as it describes its own foreign policy priorities just
50:29 as it is a priority and should be a priority across the atlantic space and um as the ambassador um has said
50:36 um uh and this has been described in a number of the uh
50:42 biden campaign statements and even on the transition page about building a foreign policy for the middle class as
50:49 uh as madeleine albright likes to say a democracy needs to deliver for its uh people
50:56 um thank you uh uh all for the beautiful tributes to congressman hamilton which i
51:03 will repeat to him if he's not already watching uh what um when i describe him uh to our
51:10 students of course i talk about the his and senator luger's reach across the aisle and the
51:16 importance of bipartisanship uh particularly in foreign policy and and how their greatest successes
51:24 were by building unity uh rather than division in the country and also with uh uh in their in their
51:30 global policies um but i also sometimes describe him as a person of principle and pragmatism
51:38 and i think we'll see some of those elements in a in a new biden administration on a variety of things
51:45 president-elect biden has always been independent on foreign policy issues including on uh
51:51 issues related to the use of force which uh are well known to this group and positions
51:57 related to afghanistan and his positions there on his position on the use of force in
52:02 libya in 2012 uh and on on syria where uh
52:08 the obama administration's policies for better or worse or maybe for both were
52:13 largely to um stand aside when it came to a major
52:18 military response at the same time the president-elect has
52:24 consistently emphasized the importance of values in u.s foreign policy with an emphasis on stronger support for democracies
52:32 and there is as part of the program a plan to convene a summit for democracy
52:41 in the first year of the administration to focus on fighting corruption defending against authoritarianism and
52:47 advancing human rights and to the ambassador's point also a big digital piece uh not just for governments but also for
52:55 uh social media companies and and and tech um senator you've talked about the paris
53:02 accord on climate change and the
53:07 plan to rejoin paris this is a point of great potential cooperation across the atlantic
53:14 the eu's recovery plan embeds important elements of
53:21 of climate change mitigation and green policies in its recovery plan and i
53:27 would suspect that's an area for terrific uh cooperation across the atlantic
53:32 fighting covid together and as the ambassador mentioned uh in the
53:37 new vaccine news that's already a transatlantic enterprise and more cooperation
53:44 across the atlantic and also globally as the ambassador said is essential and that will be fostered as well by a
53:50 decision to rejoin the world health organization
53:55 we've talked about iran already and that will be challenging uh it may be more of
54:01 an interim arrangement than a permanent one but that is something that will be
54:07 important to do again as a transatlantic community
54:12 and we've talked very much about china and i won't repeat what others have said
54:17 uh i'll just highlight the point that approaching china as the senator said really requires
54:24 as much as possible a similar assessment across the atlantic about what the nature of the challenges are and working
54:31 together to address those challenges the only one who benefits from a division or a
54:38 lack of common effort across the atlantic is china and others who don't support the democratic system
54:45 i guess i have to say one thing about poland since i served there and i'll and i'll end with that but i also think it
54:51 has broader applications which is that president-elect biden has very deep
54:57 experience he's obviously a strong supporter of nato and he
55:03 he came to poland while i served actually just 10 days after i arrived to address the
55:09 question of missile defenses and how to reposition missile defenses in poland
55:14 and he also laid the groundwork for the first continuous presence of u.s forces uh in the country so he's
55:22 committed to the transatlantic relationship one thing he won't do and i think this is
55:27 has brought her application is to create a choice that countries of the european union and
55:33 uh u.s allies uh are uh will not feel the need to choose
55:40 between the united states and europe i think that uh countries have been put at a very tough position in the last four
55:46 years uh and that's been very much to the detriment of a stronger eu and a stronger transatlantic
55:53 partnership and approaching this issue not as a zero-sum game but viewing a strong eu
55:59 and strong transatlantic relations uh as both mutually enhancing
56:04 i hope will be a feature of the transatlantic relationship in the next four years
56:11 thank you very much thank you dean feinstein
56:16 at this point i would like to give the floor to dimitri corcola if you're wondering why i'm dropping the
56:22 asses it's because i'm as a greek speaker i feel a need to do
56:28 that because that is the way people are addressed in the greek language there
56:34 so demetrius corcolas has held a variety of positions in greece and the eu
56:40 he served as the deputy minister of foreign affairs of greece responsible for european affairs and economic
56:46 diplomacy from june uh 2012 until january 2015
56:52 among a literal multitude of positions that he has held he has served as eu ambassador in lebanon bulgaria and
56:59 bosnia herzegovina herzegovina um dimitri the floor is yours
57:12 and dimitri if you could unmute yourself please
57:18 i'm glad that most of the points that i wanted to cover have been covered already by the previous speakers
57:24 i just wanted to start by reassuring senator van hollen
57:30 of course we are aware of the damages that have been done to the transatlantic friendship and relation in
57:38 the last four years but personally i'm very optimistic that the repair can be very fast very
57:44 quick already now by hearing the language that he has used
57:50 to describe the foreign policy of the next administration gives me or reminds me of the good old
57:58 days of the mid 90s where european and american diplomacy and politics
58:05 we we were working together to stabilize central eastern europe
58:10 and to promote democracy and free economy in those countries at that time
58:15 i had the privilege of being personally involved as a eu official to these efforts
58:21 which were extremely successful nobody speaks now about this joint achievement
58:28 because it was a success we all blame the european union and the americans
58:33 for the blood it is the grace of yugoslavia but nobody praises us
58:39 for what we jointly achieved which was a miracle i mean going from a totalitarian
58:44 state and a state-controlled economy to a free economy and to a democratic system in
58:50 fact without any any conflict not to speak about the different
58:56 problems of minorities borders etc so i
59:02 i think that and i have the privilege also to meet personally vice president
59:07 biden when i was ambassador in sarajevo uh where again for bosnia as the governor both eu
59:14 and america were we were working hand-to-hand in order to find the solution to the problems that
59:21 unfortunately still exist in this in this region so i am confident that
59:27 it will be very easy at least at the level of let's say diplomats and politicians to re-establish
59:34 confidence of course i think we have to work together to re-establish the image of america in
59:41 europe i saw the last euro barometer and unfortunately the
59:47 negative views of europeans vis-a-vis america have increased dramatically
59:52 so i think that there is a need also for joint actions at the level of visibility and public public opinion
1:00:00 i think that very important contribution of the new administration
1:00:07 for the european stability is to put some order in nato
1:00:13 because i think what has happened in nato in the last four years is very damaging for all of us
1:00:20 we as europeans we have started to be aware of the need to do more for our
1:00:27 defense and already since 2014 in our treaties in the lisbon treaty we
1:00:34 have foreseen the establishment of a kind of of defense union progressively
1:00:40 this is not something directed against nato it is complementary to nato and
1:00:46 most of the member states since 2014 are increasing progressively
1:00:52 their defense spending in order to reach the the two percent so i think that
1:00:58 these efforts for a more uh co-coordinated european defense will
1:01:05 continue will even be accelerated because of the instability that we feel in our
1:01:11 immediate neighborhood in east mediterranean in in ukraine
1:01:17 and i think there is a will now of all member states to do more
1:01:22 together with our americans not against the americans in in in complementarity with nato for our
1:01:29 own defense so i another area where i think the next administration would be
1:01:34 extremely helpful is the promotion of democracy this has always been
1:01:40 a very important because as it was said before we are not just friends because
1:01:45 of interest but because of common values and i think we have learned
1:01:51 from our past experiences from our successes and from our failures
1:01:56 how to promote democracy and i think now there is a need i heard with a lot of
1:02:01 interest the proposal of joe biden about this assignment of democratic countries
1:02:08 i think that this is an excellent idea and could contribute to the awareness of
1:02:15 many people in countries that are now towards the
1:02:20 authoritarian direction that europe and america will continue to defend
1:02:27 their common common values so and of course i mean
1:02:33 when i was preparing myself for this debate i i thought talking about hungary in
1:02:39 poland and uh asking for the the support of the americans but then i
1:02:45 said as an ex-eu official it is not up to me
1:02:50 to make such a comment but since justina mentioned this
1:02:56 i i just want to say that i fully agree of course we have our own european
1:03:02 mechanisms to deal with our internal problems but of course any help
1:03:07 from our american friends on this issue would be very welcome and of course i
1:03:13 fully agree with the last the last comment of ambassador fenstein that
1:03:19 america should not try to divide europe on the country it should contribute to a more united europe
1:03:25 europe today has overcome a lot of problems that we experienced during the economic crisis
1:03:31 the acceptance of the european union by our citizens is the highest
1:03:37 in the last 20 years and i think this creates a very positive environment for a reinforcement of our
1:03:44 transatlantic relations thank you
1:03:52 thank you demetri i know we really want to get going to the questions and answers but uh anna
1:04:00 the amanda poolu was so good as to send a video and i feel obligated to uh to
1:04:06 play it um she she has played such a key role in organizing this event
1:04:12 and unfortunately is not able to be here due to her commitments the commitment surrounding
1:04:19 her candidacy for the secretary general of the oecd
1:04:24 um so with uh it's about a four and a half minute video i'm going to play that
1:04:29 and then we will move into the question and answer session you'll let me share my screen here
1:04:45 now
1:04:51 for some reason hold on
1:05:04 i would like to congratulate president-elect john biden and the american people for their resilience
1:05:11 and for their democratic spirit of course we have to mention
1:05:16 that the outcome brought to surface the power of women camilla harris will be the first woman
1:05:23 to call this the office of vice president of the united states
1:05:29 and her victory has an impact at the global level
1:05:34 political and the cultural one nevertheless i do really believe that we
1:05:40 can safely assume that the job items victory will mark a new era in the
1:05:47 cancer genetic relations america's international alliances play a
1:05:54 key role in global peace in global security and prosperity
1:06:00 in this respect the united states can become again
1:06:06 the guard of multilateralism of fair and free trade
1:06:13 the european union the european union aspires for a more constructive targeted
1:06:18 and functional cooperation with washington what the europeans want to see happening
1:06:24 in the united states is a consolidation of political stability and
1:06:31 strengthening of political unity so that biden harris can work for peace
1:06:39 democracy and progress both domestically and globally
1:06:45 this is not an easy task for the new administration our era is turbulent and
1:06:51 an uneasy one the european union with all its difficulties
1:06:56 stands ready to upgrade and to strengthen the ties with the united states because the transatlantic
1:07:04 relation was always the pillar of international stability
1:07:09 the transatlantic alliance needs to be stabilized expanded and further deepened
1:07:16 it becomes an imperative and it is an impair it becomes an imperative due to the well-known special
1:07:24 circumstances and developments prevailing today in this
1:07:30 world from the pandemic and its ramifications to the climate change the digital
1:07:36 disruption the terrorism and the trade conflicts
1:07:41 all these unprecedented developments increasing the feeling of uncertainty
1:07:49 and undermined the stability at a global level we can already see the consequence and
1:07:55 it is that growth is drastically halted and this is something that we need to
1:08:01 stop one of the crucial factors we need to carefully consider is this
1:08:07 transformation of power and wealth from west to the east
1:08:12 this trend inevitably creates a global imbalance since it is realized beyond
1:08:19 existing international rules norms and agreements
1:08:24 this could become a troublemaker for international stability and global cooperation
1:08:32 and in this regard the respect of international agreements
1:08:37 of rules coupled with of existing groups coupling with new rules because we need
1:08:44 new rules it is an issue of immense importance
1:08:51 we all know that the transatlantic relations have gone in their history through various states we have seen
1:08:58 faces with very close alienation and at the same time we have seen conflicting moments
1:09:04 however the value and the strategic depth of our relations
1:09:10 remain today unquestionable it is inevitable to be occasionally
1:09:16 faced with differences even with disagreements still we can
1:09:21 find a way out if and when there is a will
1:09:28 this is what a world needs today a transatlantic alliance which will guard
1:09:34 stability balance of power cooperation and dialogue at an international level
1:09:41 these are the key components of an effective multilateral system
1:09:46 this is necessary for a world peace and this means cooperation
1:09:52 between states between international organizations and respecting the international
1:09:58 agreements and this is what urgently is needed more than ever
1:10:04 wishing you a very productive conference thank you again and i really regret not
1:10:10 being with you
1:10:18 all right so we've had uh a number of questions come in i'm going to try and fold two of
1:10:25 them into one to start us off um there were two people who were
1:10:30 wondering about the political unity of the united states if indeed uh we wind up with a
1:10:37 republican-controlled senate uh whether how much of a constraint that will be on the biden administration and
1:10:44 another individual who was worrying about the political unity of europe
1:10:49 will the member states all be willing to uh to pursue a a closer transatlantic
1:10:56 relationship or will there be states that will be uh impeding
1:11:02 that development um and i'll i'll uh let
1:11:07 whomever wants to answer that question uh take a stab at it
1:11:14 dimitri i think that from the from the side of the european union
1:11:19 i cannot see any particular problem i think all member states from the south from the north
1:11:26 rich and less rich they are keen to cultivate
1:11:32 deeper and better relations with the united states so from our side i don't see any problem
1:11:38 there are some internal differentiations concerning the speed and the path
1:11:43 to create a european defense union which as i said before is not going to
1:11:50 be antagonistic to the americans or to the nato but complementary there are different views
1:11:56 uk had a very different position and was not willing to participate in such an
1:12:03 endeavor now we shall see if the brexit and the withdrawal of the
1:12:08 united kingdom will make things easier even for the defense aspect so from our our point of view
1:12:16 there is no there is no way any problem i think things will go quickly because john biden knows europe very well as as
1:12:24 the senator said and he knows even personally a lot of our leaders
1:12:30 and of course on the trade aspect and on the aspects of energy and the north stream and all
1:12:37 these things there are different views sometimes also inside the european union
1:12:43 but i think we have the framework with the wto and the other organizations and the
1:12:49 incredible rules to try to find solutions
1:12:55 so i'll speak briefly to the u.s situation in terms of
1:13:02 the ability to achieve some bipartisan consensus uh in this area but first just to leave feinstein your secret is safe
1:13:09 with me about my advice on knight law school and if you could also
1:13:14 communicate to lee hamilton the warm wishes from my wife catherine i really know lee originally through
1:13:21 the fact that catherine worked with lee and and you and and others and so
1:13:26 please uh please do that uh so here's the here's the good news
1:13:32 when it comes to the transatlantic uh alliance um number one as as president
1:13:37 united states uh you know joe biden will have a lot of leeway to conduct
1:13:43 foreign policy and and refresh and renew uh our relationship with europe but it
1:13:49 is also an area uh where there is bipartisan consensus uh over the last four years
1:13:56 the congress uh re-established the senate we established for example the nato observer group
1:14:02 it's a bipartisan group of democratic and republican senators i'm pleased to serve on it that was done in part because republican
1:14:09 senators were alarmed uh at the messages that you know president trump uh was sending
1:14:15 for the first time we invited the nato secretary general uh to address uh a joint session
1:14:21 of congress uh their strong support in in the congress republicans democrats
1:14:26 alike to restoring the full funding to the front line states so when it comes to
1:14:34 really renewing relationships between the eu and the united states and nato and the united
1:14:40 states i do think it is an area where you're going to find bipartisan consensus now the question
1:14:47 is the answer is very different um unfortunately when it comes to a lot of domestic policy initiatives
1:14:54 there's no doubt that a biden harris administration um would be
1:15:00 much in a bet much better position uh to pass uh really what we need to a
1:15:07 a strong agenda to build back better if democrats
1:15:12 already in the united states senate so all eyes are on georgia
1:15:17 if we're not successful at doing that you know the good news is joe biden has made very clear
1:15:22 that his goal is to reach out and work in a bipartisan basis
1:15:28 he does have these relationships with republican senators uh but
1:15:33 just my own personal view is it's important not to overestimate
1:15:39 the ability of those personal relationships to bring about consensus unless you have a
1:15:45 willing partner on the other side and i i'm not yet convinced that
1:15:50 mitch mcconnell if he's majority leader with his current caucus uh will be a willing partner in moving
1:15:56 uh forward a robust domestic uh agenda uh on things like investment uh to deal
1:16:04 with climate change to deal with all the other issues that you know we've we've talked about uh here but again i'll just end by
1:16:11 saying there's a lot the president biden and kamala harris can do um through their executive authorities and that's
1:16:17 especially the case uh when it comes to foreign policy in the transatlantic alliance
1:16:23 great if i can move us to another topic thank you for those very interesting answers um
1:16:32 this has been uh mentioned by a number of people but i will read the question
1:16:37 of uh antonio trifidi the gap left by the trump policy in the
1:16:42 mediterranean is now filled by turkey and russia as a result greece cyprus
1:16:49 egypt america's kurdish allies are all in a state of tension or even on the verge of war
1:16:55 on the other hand america's role in israel's relations with arab countries has been positive for the balance of power in the region how do you think the
1:17:02 president-elect will address these policies
1:17:10 well i'm happy to take a quick crack at that as well um so with respect to the eastern
1:17:16 mediterranean and this was mentioned um earlier by by a couple of uh our
1:17:21 colleagues on this panel um we we have seen uh you know turkey being
1:17:28 what i would strongly argue has been an unfaithful member of the nato alliance um
1:17:35 and and that's true in a number of areas i mean beginning with the fact that they uh acquired
1:17:40 uh the russian s 400 air defense system uh and
1:17:46 it is the view of experts within nato that that compromises
1:17:51 our security it puts nato pilots at risk recently as we know turkey has tested those s 400
1:17:59 missile systems and i hope that uh a by the administration will be much firmer
1:18:06 than the current administration which says a lot of things like that's not a good idea to turkey but has refused to
1:18:14 really take any strong action this is another area where there's bipartisan support in congress for saying
1:18:20 you know we cannot have a nato ally purchasing a major advanced russian
1:18:26 weapons system turkeys also unfortunately undermine some of the principles and
1:18:32 rule of law values of the european union united states with
1:18:38 respect to the eastern mediterranean and its aggressive actions there and
1:18:44 also recently in cyprus with its actions in varosha so we have a lot of work to do
1:18:51 to um make sure that we restore
1:18:57 turkey as a faithful ally um that's the preference i mean no one
1:19:03 wants to see them kicked out of the alliance i don't but on the other hand um
1:19:09 we we have to do a lot better at letting them know that their actions are unacceptable very briefly in the middle
1:19:16 east yes it is it's a positive development in my
1:19:22 view to see the uae and bahrain and others recognize israel at the same time
1:19:30 you are going to see a biden harris administration i think try to um
1:19:38 try to [Music] deal with the issues between israel and the palestinians
1:19:45 um in in the way that had been a bipartisan consensus working to shore up the idea of a two-state
1:19:52 solution uh that means being very clear that annexation is unacceptable it means a
1:19:57 message to the palestinians uh that they've got to work harder to get their own house
1:20:03 in order and i think you will see a renewal of
1:20:10 that effort from a biden harris administration including
1:20:16 reestablishing an american consulate in east jerusalem uh as as well as restoring humanitarian
1:20:22 assistance to the palestinians who are in desperate need
1:20:28 great thank you senator van hollen i'm going to put ambassador lambranidi on the
1:20:34 spot with the next question with biden expected to take office in january there's some hope for positive
1:20:40 change in the near future but there is already discussion about the next presidential election in 2024
1:20:47 and trump running again should we expect that the relationship is going to be the transatlantic
1:20:53 relationship is going to be contingent on four-year cycles is the u.s unreliable as a partner now
1:21:01 um as president macron and chancellor merkel have been alluding to is going is europe going to need to
1:21:08 start looking further at going it alone how are you viewing the u.s these days
1:21:18 i think i have to circle back to what i said at the beginning europe is in a different place as well
1:21:24 not just the united states and it is for reasons that are largely unrelated to the united
1:21:30 states although maybe in some instances also related i think
1:21:35 the rhetoric against the unity of the european union alerted many people in the past few years
1:21:41 to the importance of building a stronger eu whether it is economically or socially
1:21:47 or militarily but this did not happen in order to oppose the u.s but for the contrary in
1:21:54 order to be able to bring to the table more european capacity to deal with world challenges that we both face
1:22:00 together understanding however that that in any u.s administration this is a different
1:22:05 country that the us may not be as fully engaged as it was before um i want to be very clear everyone in
1:22:13 europe understands the united states is the indispensable country the indispensable nation when it comes
1:22:19 to the multilateral system that we're building in peace and security around the world but that doesn't mean that it
1:22:25 should be alone in this and we have taken much more of our own responsibility in our own hands this is
1:22:31 not always easy indeed there are differences in disagreements in europe and that's the nature of the european union but it has been remarkable how we
1:22:38 have come out of virtually every different crises um stronger more united and that is uh
1:22:44 really the fundamental added value that we uh expect to bring to the transatlantic
1:22:50 relationship under the biden administration as well but we will not and we should not be relying
1:22:56 on what happens in the u.s in the electoral cycles in order to determine what is in europe's interest
1:23:02 when we talk about an open strategic autonomy of europe in virtually every field
1:23:08 we are indeed talking about a europe that can chart its own course
1:23:13 but make no mistake we are always sitting at the same side of the table with the united states and
1:23:20 this is precisely what we're going to be working on uh with a new transatlantic partnership uh to uh that we'll be
1:23:26 discussing with the biden administration uh there are many issues to deal with together now
1:23:32 one of the irritants of the past few years for us has been the uh excessive exercise of
1:23:38 sanctions on the part of the u.s administration around the world uh almost as a as a goal in themselves
1:23:45 as opposed to as a means to achieve something and i think that this is something we've also seen in the
1:23:50 discussion um uh when it came to uh nordstrom 2 that uh that was mentioned before
1:23:57 so there's no secret for example that uh that not every eu member state agrees
1:24:03 on the value of nordstrom 2. but at the same time we unanimously decided as european countries to amend a
1:24:10 gas directive to ensure that all pipelines coming into europe no matter where from have to
1:24:16 respect european laws and that means that there has to be an
1:24:21 unbundling between those who supply the gas and those who transfer the gas there has to be an openness of the pipelines
1:24:28 for gas from from other suppliers there has to be transparency there has to be
1:24:33 everything that will require from everyone else and that was a a unanimous eu decision uh in order not to
1:24:42 highlight just the areas where there's this agreement but fundamentally
1:24:47 energy security in europe is something that is a priority for us for many many years
1:24:53 and the best way the silver bullet to address the potential of relying too much on one supplier or another
1:24:59 is to ensure that we europeans can have energy diversity both in sources of
1:25:05 supply and in energy mixes our emphasis on the european green deal
1:25:11 is precisely that it's going to be extremely important for europe's energy independence to be
1:25:18 able to move as we're doing now in very fast you know groundbreaking innovations as
1:25:24 we are doing today in europe to ensure that we can have alternative clean sources of energy replacing others as
1:25:31 the years go by ensuring that in the process of transitioning there we can have
1:25:36 a less polluting energy sources such as liquefied natural gas
1:25:43 a lot of which comes from the united states is another part of the strategy and indeed u.s exports of lng to europe
1:25:51 in the past couple of years have increased by almost 400 percent it hasn't just happened it's happened
1:25:56 because the european union and member states are investing massively in lng terminals and also in interconnectors
1:26:03 energy interconnectors to make sure that uh you know uh energy producing one part of europe can be transferred in in
1:26:09 others uh there's the three seas initiative that was mentioned before indeed uh is
1:26:15 uh something that the european union has supported uh president juncker was present in the first couple of summits
1:26:21 uh we we're doing it throughout it's very important to focus on the on the on all the prongs of that initiative
1:26:27 uh which are transport connectivity digital connectivity and energy connectivity and to ensure that the
1:26:33 energy part uh complies with the european unions and all its member states decisions on a transition to
1:26:39 green energy so uh you know if the energy part is used to bring more coal for example
1:26:46 that's not going to be able to fly so it's quite important uh to uh to uh to
1:26:51 think of the details that will allow the three seasons initiative and this is a discussion that's happening all the time
1:26:57 uh to uh to take off but keep in mind uh when it comes to energy infrastructure in all those areas the
1:27:04 the funding coming from the eu for that infrastructure to all member states including the member states that
1:27:11 are mostly active in three seas is way higher by by a multitude
1:27:16 of uh um you know proportions than uh than the 1 billion committed today by by the us
1:27:24 but let me close with a sanctions issue so we've seen this happening it's a problem
1:27:30 and um i mean just imagine if the european parliament were to say tomorrow that you
1:27:37 know what we do not like what the u.s administration is doing on um on clean
1:27:42 energy in in the us we consider that the policy decisions they are making
1:27:48 uh on methane gap emissions on reducing standards uh for uh for a clean environment are
1:27:54 detrimental uh to the world economy uh but also really bad for the u.s
1:28:00 itself um therefore we will announce a number of sanctions against u.s companies who are
1:28:07 engaged in all those things that the u.s administration has set in place i would expect reaction in the u.s would
1:28:14 not be that charitable and it is in fact in the context of partnerships that we have to consider it
1:28:20 precisely as as senator van hollen said looking at areas in which we may not be
1:28:25 entirely in agreement but we are large in agreement uh to be able to coordinate and cooperate with a different rhetoric and
1:28:32 a different transatlantic partnership at the core of our cooperation
1:28:38 this i am very optimistic about and this will make a a huge difference as we work
1:28:43 with the us government with the u.s congress absolutely in all uh
1:28:49 in all areas and frankly also at the state of uh at the level of u.s states
1:28:56 you know i mentioned before that in the eu when it comes to the environment
1:29:01 our carbon emissions have gone down dramatically since 1990 and gdp growth has gone up dramatically
1:29:07 there is a coalition of u.s states here in the united states uh comprising of more than 60 i believe the u.s
1:29:13 population and around the same number of u.s gdp that are also focusing on energy clean
1:29:19 energy transition those states have seen their energy their their emissions reduced
1:29:27 and their gdp grow twice as fast as u.s states that are not
1:29:32 in this coalition so we are supremely focused on working as well with u.s civil society around
1:29:38 the country with u.s business around the country this is a holistic approach and if we do
1:29:45 this together well i think that our economies in the next few years will um frankly and i don't i
1:29:54 i want to use those words carefully but they will really
1:29:59 bloom they will really bloom and we have to be together in this
1:30:05 thank you ambassador lambrinidi um i'd like to to finish with one final
1:30:10 question here um for lee feinstein and eustina
1:30:16 uh zayak um and that regards the question of um
1:30:23 totalitarianism authoritarianism in eastern europe um what what are some specific steps that
1:30:30 the biden administration can take to discourage nationalist and populist
1:30:35 forces i know dean feinstein has another appointment so maybe maybe we'll let him
1:30:41 uh answer that first and i believe eustina you also maybe had something to say about nordstrom
1:30:51 i'm here for the duration but uh i i know everyone will want to um wrap up soon uh and thank you frank
1:30:59 for a fabulous uh panel um i'll defer to you know eustina on the
1:31:05 specifics but i guess i would just put it in more general terms which is that um you know
1:31:13 all of our countries are facing you know really difficult forces and challenges uh internally and and the fact that the
1:31:20 united states um as um the ambassador said uh in the beginning of his remarks
1:31:28 uh had a record turnout the largest turnout since 1908 in its election
1:31:33 uh and uh um showed so much resiliency as the senator
1:31:38 said in the in the in the counting of votes and and how the election has been conducted
1:31:44 despite all the challenges that we're all familiar with sends an important message
1:31:50 and i think that's judging by the emails and texts i've been getting from my friends in poland i think
1:31:56 they're all very inspired uh by uh by this example uh and um you know to the we've you know
1:32:04 democracy has been a theme running throughout this uh discussion and i think to the extent that the united states and europe can work together uh
1:32:10 on these issues i think that can have a very important influence and we can state together what our
1:32:18 principles are and um and that i think will have an impact
1:32:23 on gov you know the illiberal democracies that have developed in central and eastern europe and elsewhere
1:32:36 so so let me just put some words to the this what what the dean feinstein said
1:32:43 um my expectation is and then i i think that we can expect it from this what the biden say and assess and also
1:32:51 of his of his experience in the in the politics that when we talk about the
1:32:56 threes this initiative said so this will really become an institution of uh
1:33:02 uh of the the enhanced cooperation within the european union okay so that
1:33:08 it will not be like some kind of institution that some country may use as disintegrate the european union rather
1:33:15 it will be like a strong signal and the strong single from washington is okay we
1:33:20 want to have united european union this is very important also for the for for
1:33:26 the countries and for for the government like like the polish government yes so so yes
1:33:31 the european commission joined the the three initiatives the germany um joined the initiative so now really this
1:33:39 the the clear signal from washington okay we want the european union to work
1:33:44 together to be integrated i believe that this is very this is very important and and as for the for the authoritarian
1:33:52 [Music] regime's uh um or the problem of the
1:33:57 rather the the rule of law and and democracy yes the the united states has this
1:34:06 instruments and the political possibility to influence on the government in poland at least
1:34:13 um because the the hungary might be more complicated issue but but in poland for sure
1:34:19 u.s has been always perceiving poland as the very important strategic partner for
1:34:25 the security and today it's not only about the military security the fact that the american soldiers on in europe
1:34:32 and in poland especially but also about this energy security okay so this is uh
1:34:39 this is something that lng that already poland buy from from the united states
1:34:44 and want to continue and has opened a few years ago the lng in the baltic sea
1:34:50 this is this something that wants to continue and now there is also the
1:34:56 ongoing talks between poland polish government and the u.s
1:35:01 government about the nuclear nuclear program it's about the you know
1:35:07 to sign the agreement on poland uh u.s cooperation towards developing poland
1:35:13 civil nuclear energy program so it's also in the framework of the
1:35:19 producing the clean energy that poland is of course one of the biggest polluter in in poland
1:35:26 very much based on coal um so this is the you know expectation that maybe also this kind of of
1:35:33 cooperation the nuclear corporation this this civil nuclear corporation i don't know whether it will be signed or
1:35:39 not but that the talks are the talks are going on so i believe that in this sense
1:35:44 of course the united states with this clear very clear you know signal that
1:35:50 united europe is is is needed um
1:35:56 this will improve also you know the stance and the approach of those countries like like like poland or the
1:36:04 some euroceptic euroceptic governments to work together and and and just the last the last
1:36:12 sentence it was actually during the obama presidency when the joe biden was the
1:36:17 vice president it was very clear i believe to polish government that
1:36:23 poland must have a good relation with germany okay needs to take about the good relations with germany and it was
1:36:31 the case of course it was different government so it was more willing to to have this cooperative approach but this
1:36:37 is also important because now for this government in poland you know germany is perceived i would say
1:36:44 as an enemy so this strong you know strong impact is okay germany and is
1:36:50 your friend and you should cooperate so this is this is really really important so i think that it can
1:36:56 be very positive from of the united states as well
1:37:02 great thank you eustina and lee i just want to acknowledge one last
1:37:08 question somebody from a small town a student perhaps who asks
1:37:13 how how do i i follow the career paths that you have all followed um and i would say
1:37:22 number one um come study with us at the hamilton luger school of global and international studies
1:37:29 and number two um be a student of the world read about foreign policy read about foreign
1:37:36 affairs international news take the foreign service exam and become a foreign service officer
1:37:44 and if anyone has anything else to add as you come to the european commission
1:37:50 i mean there are exchange programs even with the u.s youth and i think
1:37:56 this will be a fabulous experience for a young american if
1:38:03 let me just say demeter you just took the words out of my mouth and we have at the european uh union embassy here in
1:38:08 washington we have exchange programs uh for uh uh
1:38:14 for young professionals including congress staffers others uh to come to europe there's the erasmus
1:38:21 class program that supports student exchanges and
1:38:26 you know many people don't know this but they are in fact almost twice the number of american students today studying in european
1:38:33 union countries than europeans standing in the u.s and you know there are a lot of europeans studying in the us
1:38:39 so uh absolutely i would say that if i may say one thing though at the same time the uh
1:38:46 i i'm really grateful that the the person asking depression thinks that we're that important i certainly don't
1:38:51 feel uh that important i mean i know that um you know at every point in my life
1:38:58 i have i have tried to ask myself um the most important question about what i
1:39:04 do which is which is why so you know most people can answer easily the question what do you do
1:39:11 oh i am you know the ambassador maybe fewer people can ask the answer the question how do you do it
1:39:17 how exactly do you do what you're doing and that's an important question and even fewer people can answer the
1:39:24 question why so i would tell our friend figure out your why
1:39:29 don't just you know dream to become a senator or a famous professor or a uh you know or a
1:39:36 minister or an ambassador see what moves you what it is you really
1:39:41 want to change in the world and if you can find the answer to that then figure out the best path for you to
1:39:46 do that but if you simply are ambitious if you simply want to get to a good
1:39:51 place that you can have a discussion like this without knowing why
1:39:56 take a time off and and figure it out before you proceed
1:40:02 true true words of wisdom something sure
1:40:08 just wanted to say that if you would like to practice this is for students would like to practice like
1:40:14 a simulation and negotiation within the european union so we have this simulation at indiana university that
1:40:20 brazil has already mentioning the midwest model of the european union so this is like i would say the first step
1:40:27 to learn how really to deal with the diplomas and with the negotiations so you are very welcome to this one
1:40:35 and if you figure out if you figure out an indiana university how the european union works give me a call and let me
1:40:40 know david came true with respect to the congress
1:40:47 and and by the way there are of course opportunities on capitol hill both with
1:40:52 your senators or on committees which is obviously a good fusion of policy including foreign policy and
1:40:58 politics to really understand um what what moves a lot of these issues
1:41:05 i just want to add something to the senator and i'm sure that the ambassador will agree with me
1:41:11 we as europeans and as greeks we are very grateful to the united
1:41:17 states for their support during the crisis the economic crisis
1:41:22 the support to greece and to the european union to the unity of the euro and the stabilizers of the euro the the
1:41:29 the american administration of the time obama and his team did a lot of efforts
1:41:35 to stabilize the euro and to keep greece inside your inside the european union we
1:41:40 are very grateful for that thank you mr ambassador for for saying that and i i think you'll see that same
1:41:47 spirit from a president joe biden as you saw from president uh obama and vice president
1:41:54 thank you for mentioning that well and and thank you all for such a an
1:42:00 inspiring and interesting conversation um i'm i feel uh indebted to you i feel
1:42:07 i feel humbled to be uh able to share the stage with you um it's been a real pleasure to be able to
1:42:14 host this this meeting and to learn from you as well with that i think i will bring the
1:42:20 meeting to a close thank you again and and please accept my applause
1:42:32 yes

Description of the video:

0:00 good morning to those of you in the united states and good afternoon to those of you in europe calimera
0:06 calispera my name is franklin hess and i am the director of the institute for european studies at iub
0:12 indiana university bloomington i also coordinate the modern greek program here it's my great pleasure to be able to
0:18 host the inaugural future of the european union mini conference we have created this mini-conference to
0:25 bring academics and decision-makers into dialogue in order to further good governance and cooperation
0:31 and to raise awareness about issues facing the eu both on the iub campus and more broadly
0:38 there will be two sessions today's session focuses on what kovid 19 hath wrought how the
0:44 pandemic is altering the eu tomorrow's session will address the transatlantic relationship
0:50 in the wake of the europe the u.s election before we start i'd like to acknowledge
0:56 my co-organizers of this event ana diamando pourlo and debbie jazzy andrejo
1:02 both of the diction network for reform in greece and europe i'd also like to thank the jean monet
1:09 program whose center of excellence grant has provided the funds to make this event possible
1:15 last i'd like to acknowledge my assistant director heather doomling and the staff members
1:22 of both the hamilton luger school of global and international studies and the institute
1:28 for european studies who have worked so tirelessly over the past several weeks to make this event happen
1:36 i also have a brief video from anna diamandopulu
1:42 and i will share my screen at this point a brief video of welcome to play that
1:58 dear frank dear friends uh i really apologize and i very much regret not being with you in
2:06 this conference maybe you know that the greek prime minister has nominated
2:12 me for the position of secretary general of oecd and
2:18 my campaign has immense priorities and commitments
2:26 there are parallel uh commitments now this is why i cannot be with you
2:33 this collaboration between
2:39 and the hamilton luger school was inevitably affected by the pandemic
2:47 we had organized twice to come to the united states and will postpone
2:52 everything because of the pandemic regardless i do believe that this is a
2:59 very uh proper moment for a discussion between the americans and europeans for
3:06 the transatlantic relations especially now after the u.s
3:13 presidential elections i think that this is a very good moment
3:19 we the europeans and the americans can discuss about the priorities about the
3:25 differences we can focus on particular issues and i think it is very important not
3:33 only the governments to discuss but the stakeholders to have a further discussion on all
3:40 these issues so i think tanks universities the business world civil society
3:45 it is important to come together and this is exactly what we do today
3:52 i really believe that it will be a full a truthful conference and i wish you
3:59 all success and look forward to joining you in the very near future
4:06 thank you
4:18 thank you anna at this point i would like to introduce john mccormick who will be
4:25 moderating this session john is a professor of political science at IU indianapolis
4:30 indiana university per uni purdue university indianapolis uh he is a jean monet professor of eu
4:37 politics former fulbright schumann chair at the college of europe and he is educated
4:43 at university college in london and at iu bloomington the author of multiple books including
4:49 two textbooks on the politics of the european union and as well as monographs titled
4:56 europeanism and why europe matters uh john is a
5:02 old hand at european union studies and i thank him for agreeing to moderate this panel and with that i will
5:10 pass the reins on to him well thank you very much frank it's good to be here good morning
5:15 good afternoon good evening to everybody wherever you may be um i will just be briefly introducing
5:21 each of our panelists who will be making opening comments of about seven to ten minutes and then
5:26 we'll open up the conversation to everybody else um everybody is muted i understand but
5:33 if you have a question please go ahead and post it on the chat and then i will keep
5:38 tabs on that and then i will convey your questions to the panelists so we're going to begin
5:45 um with demetrius kurkalis who has a long experience of working in
5:52 greek government and the european union i studied at the university of athens and the university of bonn and cologne
5:58 in germany i spent some time as the eu ambassador first to lebanon and then to bulgaria was the director
6:07 in the directorate general for enlargement in the european commission in brussels and spent some time as the
6:14 deputy minister for foreign affairs for greece so without further ado i'd like you to welcome
6:20 please demetrius gurukalis
6:29 dimitris you need to unmute your microphone sorry
6:35 sorry i think now it's okay so i would like to thank uh
6:40 the university to thank victor and alex for this initiative to welcome eva kylie
6:48 from the european parliament and george from uh our friend from from florence now
6:55 i'll go straight to the substance of the matter i believe that we can say
7:01 today that the old doctrine that each crisis offers an opportunity for the european
7:09 integration to move forward seems to still hold true
7:14 before the covet crisis he was increasingly split between pro-european
7:21 cosmopolitans and euroskeptic nationalists your skeptic attitudes have been
7:28 reinforced during the economic crisis 2009-2015
7:33 that contributed to the impressive rise of populism and populist political parties in all
7:40 member states at the beginning of the pandemic the french the
7:46 french president emmanuel macron warned that the virus could change this balance between these
7:53 two camps and strengthen the nationalists even more
7:59 indeed when the crisis broke out during the first days of panic and given the fact that there is
8:07 no eu exclusive competence on public health issues several countries decided
8:14 to go solo by closing borders and impinging the free
8:19 circulation of medical products a few months later we could say that
8:26 the balance between the two camps the pro-europeans and the euroskeptics
8:32 has changed but not in favor of the eu skeptics the 27 member states managed to take
8:40 advantage of the crisis and adopt decisions that under normal circumstances
8:46 could have taken many years look for example at the eu decision to
8:52 increase its multi-annual budget to two percent of the gdp
8:57 i'm sure that george pablo sandino will say more about that something that it was an absolute taboo
9:04 for years look at the decision last july to
9:09 authorize the european commission to borrow on the international markets on behalf of the eu another taboo has
9:17 fallen look at the decision to allow a more flexible use of structural funds by the member
9:24 states look at the decision of 27 sovereign
9:29 countries to ask the european commission to negotiate and conclude on their
9:35 behalf all contracts with international pharmaceutical companies for the vaccine it was unthinkable a few
9:44 months ago this is not just a very important decision for fighting the pandemic
9:50 it is a very strong sign of solidarity that all member states agree to equally
9:58 serve the available vaccines it is a benchmark decision and has a
10:03 huge symbolic value so what has really happened since last
10:11 march when the pandemic broke out i think that the covet 19 crisis has
10:19 brought europeans closer together the pandemic has attacked all member states
10:27 poor and rich in the north or in the south old and new in a symmetric way
10:35 this has reinforced the feeling of being together it has become obvious that in a
10:41 globalized world we need collective action
10:47 many euroskeptics appear to have realized that european cooperation is the only
10:52 way to preserve the relevance of their nation states and enable their countries to address
10:59 the challenges of today's globalized and dangerous world on the other hand
11:06 many pro-europeans have seen that in a world of squeezed between china
11:13 and donald trump's america europe's hope is to strengthen its
11:19 independence this has been a make or break moment
11:27 in european history till now the crisis has been used as an opportunity to promote closer
11:34 european integration we should keep in mind that public
11:40 health is not an eu competence it remains an exclusive
11:45 national competence there is an eu common agricultural policy there is an
11:51 eu trend policy but there is no eu common health
11:57 policy but despite this fact many new initiatives were taken by
12:03 brussels in the last few months just to mention a few of them
12:08 the creation of a strategic strategic rescue capacity a common european
12:14 reserve of emergency medical equipment financed hundred percent by the european
12:20 commission or the industrial protection mechanism
12:26 who is helping coordinate and finance the delivery of medical equipment
12:31 to third countries that have sought assistance and last june the european commission
12:38 presented the european vaccine strategy to accelerate the development
12:45 manufacturing and deployment of vaccines against covet 19.
12:52 eu member states speak with one voice in the who and
12:59 eu is a very strong supporter of the world health organization's role
13:04 as the lead agency for health globally
13:10 so this new momentum comes at the time when the debate about the conference on the future of europe is at the top
13:17 of the eu agenda it was planned to start in may this year but has been
13:24 postponed and will take place immediately after the end of the pandemic
13:30 it is intended that the conference involve citizens and european
13:35 institutions to discuss about the medium to long-term future of the eu
13:41 and what reforms should be made to european policies and european
13:47 institutions this initiative has the potential to produce
13:52 meaningful results about the necessary reforms
13:59 now what is the impact of the pandemic crisis to citizens attitudes towards the eu
14:06 a definite answer cannot be given at this point in time as the pandemic is not over yet
14:13 unfortunately but the last available data from july august euro barometer this pan-european
14:21 public opinion survey saw that 62-62 of european citizens
14:28 trust the eu to make the right decisions in the future about the coronavirus
14:36 in my view the covet experience will reinforce the argument for more
14:43 competences on public health being transferred to brussels
14:48 but this is not a classical fight of federalism against national sovereignty
14:55 it is about reinforcing europe's sovereignty
15:00 or as emmanuel macron put it europe's strategic autonomy in the
15:06 crucial area of public health brussels is the best tool to empower
15:13 european nation states in a globalized world it is not an act of solidarity
15:19 but an act of national interest thank you
15:27 thank you very much uh demetrius um for those of you who uh may have joined later um just a quick
15:33 reminder that um we're gonna keep our questions uh to the end after all four panelists
15:39 have presented so if you have any questions go ahead and post them on the chat um all the participants are muted so
15:46 that's how i'll get to see your questions if you post them on the chat okay so moving on to our second panelist
15:53 george papa constantino he's a political economist studied at
15:58 the london school of economics in new york university uh spent a decade as a senior economist
16:04 at the organization for economic cooperation and development held several positions in greek
16:10 government was elected to the greek parliament in 2007 became minister of finance
16:16 and 2009 that was a very interesting time to be greek minister of finance uh then became minister for the
16:23 environment energy and climate in 2012 and is currently a professor of
16:29 international political economy at the european university institute in florence which is a very fine
16:35 institution that's very notable on european union studies so with that over
16:42 to you george thank you very much john it's it's a pleasure to participate in this panel
16:47 it's only a shame that we cannot be physically at the university if you will allow me
16:54 i'm going to um share my screen i have a powerpoint which will help me structure my my
17:00 remarks and still stay within the the 10-minute limit that we have so
17:07 let me start by saying that what we have is a poly crisis um it's a bit like a
17:14 perfect storm the media has already talked about the problems that we saw as a result of covet on the
17:21 limits of eu competence in areas such as health we've also had an economic recession
17:27 which is far worse than in the eurozone crisis our social protection systems have come under
17:33 incredible strain our european democracy and freedoms have faced new challenges
17:39 with the lockdowns populist narratives in an environment such as the one we're
17:45 living through have found new ammunition and of course disinformation campaigns discovered a new space
17:52 at the same time as we've been navigating in a very difficult environment between
17:57 a reluctant uh or isolationist u.s and ascending china with its particular
18:05 role in this crisis europe's role in global governance has been questioned so this is not to say that these
18:11 challenges were not there before they were there but they were magnified and given a new urgency
18:17 so what we have here from an economist's point of view is a combined demand and supply shock
18:24 and it hits the system of circular flows in an economy in
18:29 different ways it disrupts international supply chains domestic supply chains
18:35 leads to layoffs bankruptcies store closures international demand shocks and it feeds
18:41 on itself and this is why as should have been expected we are living
18:49 through a severe gdp decline if you look at this at this graph you will see the blue
18:54 lines are what we thought in 2019 would be the situation in 2020 we thought that we would have growth in
19:02 every single eu country and across the world even beyond the us china of
19:07 course which is at the far left and then if you look at the
19:12 green yellow and gray lines these are the successive forecasts
19:17 in 2020 for gdp declines in 2020 once the virus came about
19:23 and if you see we go from the spring forecast the green to the summer forecast
19:28 red and to the autumn forecast of the commission in gray situation gets worse certainly
19:35 between the spring and the summer forecast it gets slightly better in the autumn forecasts however this is before the second wave
19:41 hits so actually if you incorporate what we know now about the second wave hitting europe uh
19:47 the the the the the gdp declines are going to be worse than what the latest forecasts
19:53 show so you can as you can see every single country is is is facing very sharp gdp decline
20:00 uh with some in double digits uh the only country in the world that seems to be slightly having its head above water is
20:07 china but of course for china a growth rate of one percent uh is very much different from what we
20:14 usually see and importantly this is a much worse crisis economically speaking than
20:21 the global financial crisis and the eurozone crisis if you compare say 2009 which was
20:27 the worst year in the eurozone and 2020 you will see that for example in france
20:33 the recession is three times as bad now than it was then in the uk more than twice as bad in
20:39 spain three times plus as bad same in italy only germany seems to be pretty much
20:46 showing a decline in gdp at about the same rate as it did before so how have countries
20:54 tried to respond to this well that's economic policy 101 at the national level they've tried to
20:59 make sure that households have cash they can delay mortgage rental and other payments make sure that workers
21:06 have paychecks even quarantine or if they're temporarily laid off make sure firms have cash flow to pay
21:11 workers and suppliers especially small and young businesses can avoid bankruptcy and very importantly support the
21:17 financial system and what is really important is the way that the eu as a collective has responded this time
21:23 around and here i'd say there's three main responses first of all you have the ecb
21:30 the ecb has done refinancing operations to give commercial banks liquidity it has
21:36 changed its collateral policy to make it much more flexible and
21:41 made the eligibility much easier this is for example why greece can borrow from dcb it could not
21:48 before and and that's perhaps the most important element it has embarked into a massive asset
21:54 purchase program so buying government bonds the pandemic
22:00 emergency purchase program pepp of 750 billion and importantly giving a lot of
22:07 flexibility in the capital key in other words making sure that countries that need it
22:12 can use it even if they don't fall under the the traditional capital key which says how much
22:18 countries can can benefit from these kind of instruments the ecb moved first the commission
22:25 uh came uh uh also reasonably early uh and its first move was to suspend
22:32 uh the existing fiscal framework so uh uh the the framework that was in place
22:39 for all these years and that proved to be very difficult in the in the previous uh crisis the eurozone
22:45 crisis was completely thrown out the window stated rules were relaxed
22:50 then the commission came in by by pledging additional money to the eib and to a program for sure for to protect
22:56 firms and jobs and marshaled the esm the european stability mechanism to be able to support countries but it
23:03 was clear that this was not enough hence the big sort of bazooka which was the
23:10 new generation eu of 750 billion including grants that's a completely new
23:15 dimension which perhaps we'll have time to discuss the new multi-year budget that demeters
23:21 also mentioned of over 1 trillion and new owned resources putting community response
23:28 in in a completely new level that we have seen until now so let me try and do a very quick
23:35 comparison between two crises because it's important to understand the current crisis and also in the context of the
23:40 previous one eurozone crisis and coveted 19. the origin of the eurozone crisis was a
23:46 fiscal shock in countries of greece or a financial sector shock in countries such as ireland
23:51 here we have a combined supply and demand shock hitting every single country in terms of timing the previous crisis
23:58 had a slow impact over one or two years this time the impact was over one or two
24:04 months in terms of how severe it was it was in the eurozone crisis moderate
24:10 to severe but symmetrical in different sectors this time it is very severe and it is
24:16 highly asymmetrical certain sectors are much more hit than others and the recovery
24:21 in the previous crisis the recovery was slow and over the medium and long term and here we don't know about the recovery because we just entered the
24:28 second phase a second uh wave so will it be fast as people say
24:33 or will it be further prolonged but what is perhaps more important uh is is the policy response and the
24:41 difference in the policy responses in the eurozone crisis the narrative was one of moral hazard we cannot help
24:48 the countries that are in trouble because they have not done the job in good times it took two years
24:55 before mario draghi could utter the whatever it takes uh a phrase which turned the corner for
25:02 the eurozone and we started getting out of the rat we were in right now we have whatever it takes from
25:09 day one uh the two or three months of delay for the for the collective of the eu to make
25:15 decisions is nothing in in eu time time wise now at the national level
25:21 uh in the eurozone crisis we had a very heterogeneous response a lot of countries actually stepping on
25:27 the brakes now we have an unprecedented fiscal response all tables are broken it's enough to see
25:34 what germany is doing and how germany is supporting its businesses with with loan guarantees
25:39 and how germany has thrown out of the window with the stability and growth pact and and it's its previous reluctance
25:46 the ecb in the first crisis was slow to move and hesitant to stretch its mandate this mean vcb now has moved fast trying
25:54 not to break things but it has been a very potent force the commission back then was preaching austerity the
26:00 commission now is suspending battle rules and collectively back then it took us
26:06 two years to create the european stability mechanism and some kind of a collective response
26:11 this time around it's only taken us a few months to adopt a new direction with some
26:16 debt mutualization which was a big taboo back then so to conclude
26:24 here are my nine takeaways or from the crisis the first one is we have a new paradigm of fiscal
26:29 balance as a national level when we come out of the crisis we'll be over indebted all of us now what exactly we're going
26:35 to be doing about that is a long and difficult discussion that we will have to have but certainly we cannot go back
26:41 to the state to the fiscal rules as we as we knew them secondly we have new boundaries between
26:47 the state and the market we've come to realize that the state not just as a regulator but also as a provider of basic public goods
26:54 is important so i think we're going to be seeing a a a recalibration of that conversation
27:00 thirdly we're already re-discussing the uh the we're thinking the nature of work
27:06 who are uh the uh the essential workers in in modern societies
27:12 fourth possibly in your social compact talking about high minimum wages perhaps
27:18 a universal basic income wealth tax i will leave digital because i'm sure that eva
27:23 will discuss it we have a reframing of globalization from just in time to just in case the
27:30 concept of strategic economy autonomy enters here a new geopolitical reordering with the blocks being a flux
27:36 and we're seeing that after a long time of populism reigning supreme you know in crisis
27:43 citizens tend to favor pragmatism and tend to shun populists and the big question and that's where
27:49 i'm going to stop is is this a big leap forward for the eu the immediate was very positive
27:54 i also want to be positive i have a number of question marks this is why there's a question one here
27:59 but i think that the eu has has moved to a new direction uh let's see whether we can capitalize
28:05 on that or not thank you very much thank you very much george um i have
28:12 lots of questions already for both of our speakers but i'll wait until the end um uh moving on next to our to our third
28:19 panelist um eva kylie are you there evan can you hear me
28:26 excuse me no you're there sorry ever i was talking to evan is she he'll be up next i'm here okay sorry we
28:34 didn't we didn't have a chance to meet on cyberspace before so hello good good to meet you in cyberspace
28:40 so um um eva kylie is a member of the european parliament from greece has
28:47 a background in international relations and international political economy um studied at two
28:54 universities in greece and also spent some time at harvard after working as a journalist she was
29:00 elected to the greek parliament in 2007 and then was elected to the european
29:05 parliament in 2014 and also served as a member of the nato
29:11 parliamentary assembly and the parliamentary assembly of the union for the mediterranean so
29:17 um uh eva over to you well um thank you so much i actually did
29:23 some courses on economics but my uh i actually studied architecture and then
29:28 i'm conducting now my phd international relations and and economics so i would like first of
29:34 all to thank you for the kind presentation and uh mr frances for inviting me to this
29:40 very interesting event and i have many friends to thank so anna devadopoulou and i
29:45 wish her very good luck from uh victor for oecd as a secretary general it would
29:50 be a great uh honor uh for greece and for us to have her
29:55 representing us because she has a very good understanding and foresight of of the future and the new
30:02 technologies which is quite rare for uh for politicians trust me even in the european level
30:08 and dimitri's curriculars we have been together during difficult times
30:15 to address challenges that greece faced and now i think we can
30:21 compare a bit um the first uh great challenge that europe faced
30:27 economic one with a second non-systemic economic challenge but the pandemic that will bring an economic
30:33 challenge for europe and through our experience we will try to to be uh to the point uh my role actually here um
30:42 that i believe you invited me is because i'm chairing the science and technology committee of the european parliament
30:47 and there we are trying to um to understand how we could have been
30:54 better prepared and what we have to do really fast because we cannot see the end of the tunnel yet
31:00 we hope we can but but still everybody expected that after summer we would have gone back to a new normal
31:07 but still um it wouldn't have been a discussion about like a lockdown
31:13 so in europe and the perspective from europe um is now everything to be seen under the
31:19 prism of digitalization and uh the green innovation in order to achieve
31:25 resilience and resilience means to strengthen eu and eu economy
31:31 so to achieve that we have of course to to use this opportunity this crisis as
31:37 an opportunity to transition from the old business models into more resilient
31:43 business models that actually use innovative solutions technologies that we already
31:48 have in our hands but but we didn't take advantage because we didn't have to
31:54 and this pandemic acted as a catalyst and accelerated the the need for a digital
32:00 transformation so um i don't know if you're aware of like the legislative process in europe
32:06 but i think it's it's quite uh um eye opening to to see that we have a
32:11 new discussion now for an industrial strategy taking a strong consideration of digitalization
32:17 we have digital finance as one of the priorities for the economic committee
32:22 after concluding the capital markets union and um trying to to um to have
32:29 a new business models there with using fintech technologies and removing all the barriers that we
32:35 still have in europe um and have a real digital single market then we have the artificial intelligence
32:41 and data strategy that we will be working on the next year because until now we had like opinions
32:48 or like an idea of the direction but now we are realizing we need a very strong legal framework to take advantage of of
32:55 all the possibilities that these technologies could give us and i i can give you an example here
33:01 ecdc the european center for disease prevention and control is the is the agency well collects data
33:08 health data from all the member states now during the pandemic and we try to strengthen its mandate
33:13 but the data that they were collecting were coming from like media hospitals doctors governments but as you
33:20 may all understand um different member states different legislations legal systems different ways and levels of
33:28 digitalization um proved that we have access to lots of data but they we
33:35 cannot work to with all of them unless we prepare them
33:40 to have like some common standards so some are like most of them they are good quality but still difficult for scientists to
33:46 use so we need global standards common standards especially in europe to start with
33:52 so um this is going to be also the work we're going to do with the data strategy and of course a new
33:58 more strong gdpr that will be um actually by law binding
34:04 to create a trusted system and the approach that the commission has and i think the parliament will agree is
34:11 a low-risk and high-risk approach for applications of artificial
34:18 intelligence so this means if you deal with sensitive data or health data you will have a more
34:23 more security criteria but if you have like um low risk applications so for startups
34:28 and smes they will have better and faster access to data because this is the shortcoming we have
34:33 and that's why the scale-up sector is not doing very well in europe and we have a brain drain towards other countries i also think
34:40 it's a huge opportunity to have um to let let's also see what's happening with the
34:47 final results of the u.s elections because i think we can start building again
34:52 um a new stronger relationship and collaborate more instead of competing
34:57 because this was a word i i heard too often like compete with uh with europe but i prefer to collaborate uh as
35:04 democracies in this digital era and hopefully we can build bridges by um building and respecting same values
35:13 and building common standards i wouldn't say the same with china for example because there we saw that you need to
35:18 compromise privacy in order to have safety or like use contact tracing apps um so this is one
35:25 of the questions that arise in in europe and we discussed a lot and we decided that our approach is
35:31 to translate human rights into digital human rights by law about legislation in europe
35:38 and this means we want privacy and safety so um jorgo saba because that
35:44 didn't covered uh actually the discussion about how we also updated and how we responded with
35:52 our economic tools and instruments to this to this crisis um
35:57 so um the lessons we learned was like to achieve resilience and change and and transform our
36:03 business models would also be to invest a lot on those and to give them the uh the liquidity as
36:11 ecb has done already through also eib and through the invest eu
36:17 tool but also the horizon in order to have access to liquidity and europe sold that we will give
36:25 money and access to liquidity in order to achieve that and come out stronger from this uh
36:31 crisis and one more lesson of uh i would say on on the dimension of geopolitics that
36:38 europe learned and i think it was a global lesson was that we have to find ways to
36:46 um to have a sovereignty but um also to be able to collaborate
36:53 on on same principles or principles that we will agree that we share so to also have a reciprocity um
37:00 and in order to achieve that we have to um to solve our shortcomings as
37:07 i said in europe and remove all the frictions we have the regulatory friction create legal certainty and um
37:14 set the standards uh based on those that we can discuss for collaboration even
37:19 even with china and of course um i think we haven't discussed a lot about the the
37:27 responsibilities for this pandemic but i would say we have to discuss again about the roles of global institutions like
37:33 the world health organization because three months of delay costed
37:39 globally um too much to ignore and to to avoid talking about about responsibilities a final uh
37:47 lesson that we had in europe if i may because i i think most of what i say refers like
37:52 to global lessons after the pandemic but i think also to point out the european perspective is
37:59 important is the access to materials and raw materials that we don't have in europe so this is like the part
38:06 of like the energy strategy that we we are building on and the battery alliance that has
38:12 um been developed now in europe um so i think access to energy
38:19 and let's say a balanced approach to two countries that we need each other to to achieve
38:27 the access and to achieve to have efficient uh collaboration for uh for materials
38:34 that will help us to do um to build these batteries would be very very important and um and i i think i forgot just one
38:43 thing we saw a huge disruption in supply chains in europe and this is also something that we are
38:50 trying to fix with this legislation because um we thought we overcame these problems
38:55 uh with our legislation but we didn't so now we have also a report that came out a few days ago
39:00 for strategic foresight and uh how collective intelligence can help europe
39:05 to overcome any other problems and and learn from the pandemic i think it would be a very a great point
39:11 of reference and it mentions exactly the the points that i i refer to in my initial remarks thank
39:19 you so much all right thank you very much eva appreciate it moving on to our fourth
39:26 speaker mclennan kunova who is um
39:31 uh currently the eu ambassador to the council of europe an organization that i have enormous admiration for uh
39:37 which seems to have done enormous amount for european integration over the years without all of the fuss and bother that
39:43 sometimes comes unfortunately to the european union and the council deserves more attention
39:48 i believe than it gets so she has a background in law and journalism studied at sophia university
39:53 georgetown university and the university of oxford a member of the bulgarian parliament in 2001
40:00 um deputy minister of foreign affairs in 2002 and then became minister of foreign
40:06 affairs she was the first european commissioner from bulgaria after bulgaria joined the
40:12 european union and she had the portfolio of consumer protection and then since september 2018 she's been
40:20 the eu ambassador to the council of europe so mcgregor kuneva over to you
40:27 hello and thank you very much thank you for inviting me and thank you for the topic
40:33 you have chosen and quite unexpectedly for me uh
40:38 referring to the council of europe because uh we tend to forget uh the importance of the council of
40:44 europe take it taking for granted that it's already
40:50 seven years with us um so an organization which is uh is not that loud as you as you
40:56 said but uh but really the importance is huge especially because it's dealing with uh with human rights democracy and rule
41:03 of law and this is the foundation this is why we so much cherish our union as well
41:09 but before i start i would like to make a kind of disclosure which i hope you will
41:17 accept i i i was chief negotiator for the accession
41:25 of bulgaria but um uh two points first of all uh without dimitris querculos this uh
41:32 this goal wouldn't be achieved so smoothly and uh with uh with such a
41:38 with such a friendship so uh this is this is absolutely unforgettable time in
41:44 my life when we work together for the bulgarian accession and one more thing um i'm bulgarian by
41:52 nationality and we are neighbors i think that the best time in our history
41:57 was when when bulgaria approached the european union and we've been tremendously supported by
42:04 by greece i mean every single step no matter what is the government no matter what is the year
42:10 all the time so the first country which uh voted in favor ratified the accession treaty
42:18 because this is a procedure in every single new country it was greece and i will never forget
42:24 this is not just to pay to pay courtesy and and tribute to my greek colleagues but
42:30 this is the the most precious and the most important what uh the european integration brought
42:36 to europe brought to us brought to every single person i would say in in europe and this is
42:42 precious so uh to start with um to make kind of a
42:47 link uh is it the same mood now do you feel citizens countries
42:54 politicians ngos uh do you feel still that close together
43:00 so uh um i'm optimist by nature so uh it's a kind of little surprise that
43:06 that i'm optimistic but i can prove it i can prove that uh actually covet
43:12 brought us together and have shown that together we are really by far stronger also from the
43:20 from the human point of view uh at the beginning it was kind of a little bit
43:25 slow response but then but then this unity of eu
43:33 has shown an immense stretch i i really really think that
43:40 the lessons learned from the financial crisis where greece has suffered so much the lessons
43:47 learned and and how we reacted to uh to covet
43:53 it's clear measures should be taken uh as soon as possible uh they should be
43:59 supported uh by all and they should be executed immediately
44:04 so i'm not saying that this is the ideal still we reach the ideal step i'm i i fully agree with uh dimitris
44:11 that we do not have still competence on on on health this is not the community
44:17 competence but we are going into that direction and i think that we are going through
44:23 uh to a very convincing for our citizens uh uh for our citizens way because we
44:29 always need to measure the sovereignty and uh and uh the community goal
44:37 so more and more we are talking now about about eu sovereignty imagine only
44:44 let's say five years ago this one could have uh haven't happened but now we are talking about our common
44:51 our eu sovereignty and this is huge uh pretty soon actually next year
44:59 uh commission president van der lyon proposed and it will happen uh a health
45:06 summit a world health summit where europe will be represented
45:12 as i mean eu will be represented as uh as eu which is also a huge step forward
45:18 this uh rapid alert system uh what we have in war on another country
45:24 uh purely uh human and humanistic way to uh to uh to answer uh
45:31 taking patients from one country to another i'm based in uh in france and uh and very close to the border to the
45:38 german border uh this uh this help which countries are are offering uh uh to each other
45:46 one could could feel it we cannot talk about to communicate about europe without examples like that so uh
45:54 um there was a book which i would recommend you and the the the the author
46:01 is uh i think well known uh uh ivan krastev he wrote recently a book with an
46:08 interesting uh title uh is it tomorrow yet
46:13 and it was about covet so the short answer is that in a way it is tomorrow because so many
46:20 things has changed before going and so many things we we
46:25 realized before going to rule of law democracy and mainly human rights which is actually the core part of of my
46:33 short intervention i'd like to underline one particular point from the political
46:38 point of view our policies managed to reinforce each other
46:43 and yes uh kobit was accelerator uh what uh well just before a while was
46:50 told about the economy the steps which we've been uh we've been taken
46:56 after the lessons learned the climate change biodiversity more and more you will hear
47:02 from europe not only and just about the climate change but also about uh about biodiversity which
47:09 is more on the conservation side but this is equally important the other
47:14 one part is multilateralism of course and multilateralism is not just about the
47:20 number of the countries i i very much appreciate what the previous speaker said
47:25 uh we need to have like-minded countries it's about the quantitative quantitative uh uh
47:33 qualitative sorry qualitative uh um qualitative multilateralism the
47:40 countries which are on the same side and are hoping and working uh on the same direction uh
47:48 so in in that respect i'm i'm really happy and very very hopeful that
47:55 europe will have european union will have more and more uh reasons uh uh and more and more
48:02 opportunities to work together i really hope that climate change accord could be resumed uh that multinationalism uh will
48:11 be strengthened including also uh uh wwho and other organizations
48:17 which are so crucial for the world we need to reorganize we need to to make the things
48:23 better but uh but not not going out from from a multilateral
48:30 a multilateral fora maybe the biggest challenge
48:36 which coveted crisis posed was on the human rights on the human rights
48:43 rule of law and democracy why because democracy we cannot emphasize democracy from home
48:52 uh in confinement uh during the pandemic elections
49:00 uh freedom uh freedom of uh of uh demonstration for
49:07 example just just imagine also even even when it is related and it
49:12 touched uh upon the court procedure so many things been been changed and of course uh the
49:20 consequent is uh is uh is very is very uh unusual at the end
49:27 the difference between autocrats and democrats kind of blurred everybody claimed that
49:35 they are postponing the elections or rejecting whatever democratic practice because this is good
49:41 for the health of the population no it's not it's not the same it's one thing when you are trying
49:47 literally to to uh to shut uh your opponent and play with elections
49:54 postponing or diverting uh and another thing is to care about about
49:59 the people so uh talking about the council of europe uh
50:04 one of the things which immediately came true through the focus of our attention is could we
50:12 implement uh these more than 200 conventions which are related to democracy rule of
50:18 law and human rights so uh there was a a
50:25 widely supported by all uh a toolkit for uh for college how we can
50:32 implement the well-known conventions like violence against uh women like
50:39 the situation uh the the the treatment of uh the prisoners like uh uh freedom
50:45 of speech uh name it how many all these conventions how we can implement during the uh during the pandemic this
50:52 toolkit is is really very important and uh the main the the main point here
50:59 is that whatever the restrictions might be they are first of all subject to the
51:05 court to the european court of human rights which is
51:11 a crucial organization for uh for europe uh including for the european union we
51:17 based uh most of our of our plans of our of our directives even on
51:25 on what are the findings uh on uh from uh from the council of europe so
51:30 this one is uh is is very important the second one is about the relations about uh for the privacy
51:39 people are concerned in europe uh if they are followed if they are
51:45 uh so to say controlled uh from uh true through an apt even for
51:52 a very good reason just uh not to uh not to contaminate uh with the disease
51:58 with uh covered the others this is this is still uh this is still worrying
52:04 and all the all the findings from the council of europe and the direction
52:09 in which we prevent privacy and prevent data is tremendously important
52:15 uh we have an ambassador's conference right now and uh eu ambassador china gave us an
52:22 example that in china is very is very easy there is only one
52:27 app which is related to everything and you can you can just use one app so easy but uh
52:33 this is not what uh what we want we want uh we want a very transparent
52:40 uh legal based approach when it is about uh about our privacy and
52:47 i believe that to protect human rights uh one of the basic uh one of the basic
52:54 and and more important point is how we protect personal data how we protect
53:01 privacy because at the end this one will mean how we keep the trust and without trust there will be whatever
53:09 kind of a measure measures we we offer to protect the the
53:14 to protect the people without trust it's it's uh it's that it's it simply will not uh
53:21 will not uh will not be implemented i'd like also to say
53:26 few words about the fake news um um sorry to interrupt um we're sort of
53:31 limiting to about seven to ten minutes so if you could uh yeah a couple more minutes then just
53:38 uh bear in mind uh what kind of a damage the fake news could uh could
53:45 could cause uh we have anti-muscles we have anti-vaccines just to
53:50 to relate to the covet but this is much more and this information uh campaigns especially when they are
53:57 they are sponsored by the state and um openly russia is
54:04 uh is um exercising uh this this kind of uh campaigns quite
54:11 uh quite openly i would like to to name um it's about the istanbul convention
54:17 and gender equality it's about other uh misinformation so this is this is really
54:22 worrying if you'd like to try to see driving human rights democracy and rule of law
54:28 we need to have trust we need to have knowledge that's why the populists are going out because
54:34 obviously they do not have knowledge and we need to have strong institutions well thank you very much
54:39 sorry to be tripping too long no thank you very much and sorry to to interrupt at the end there so thank
54:46 you very much to all four of our panelists um just a reminder to everybody we have
54:51 about 50 participants just reminded if you've got any questions please go ahead and post them
54:58 on the q a button there and then i will convey the questions to the panelists i'm going to exert a moderator
55:04 prerogative and kick off with the first question which i'll direct primarily at george because he mainly raised this issue but
55:11 i'd be interested to know what all four of you thought about this so those of us who have studied the european union uh one thing that's
55:17 always very clear about it is that it's been built on crisis and john monet said it would be he said
55:22 this back in the 1960s and it seems to have had one crisis after another and
55:28 often people will say well that's that's it this is the final existential crisis it's not going to survive this one
55:34 well it's survived i don't know five six seven crises since 2000 we've had
55:39 uh the eurozone crisis we've had the refugee crisis we've had the rule of law crisis we've had
55:44 uh the rejection of the constitutional treaty crisis we've had brexit and now we have covet so the question i
55:50 have is do you i think most of you seem to have been very positive about how things are developing here um do you
55:58 see that the european union is on a learning curve and seems to be doing a better job of responding to each of
56:05 these crises as they come along i mean they're all very different in nature but um do you see us coming to see their
56:13 opinion coming out of this stronger and having learned more about the challenges of integration or do you
56:19 think that there are problems here which we have still to see emerge
56:26 i guess i'll start right yep okay thanks for that that 52 000
56:32 question john um in in the depths of the eurozone crisis when
56:39 things look really bad when the financial markets were betting against the survival of the euro when
56:46 many many u.s progressive academics were writing about the impending
56:53 end of it i kept telling people that this is a political project and we're going to keep it together come what may
57:00 we may be late to the party often uh it takes time for decision making
57:07 but we're there when it comes to the crouch so even in in a much more difficult crisis
57:14 in a sense of the difficulty of a collective response such as the eurozone crisis we proved we could do it
57:19 this one may be a tougher crisis in terms of its economic impact but it's an easier one politically to
57:25 handle because you have less of a divide between you know the sinners and the virtues you
57:31 don't have the north-south divide like you had before yes you still have the dutch being
57:38 difficult about it um but the main game changer here has been
57:44 germany germany has done a 180 degree turn from
57:49 being a preacher of austerity and you know more hazards rhetoric to
57:56 a full understanding that that we need different tools so in that sense yes there's been learning
58:02 i don't want to to over emphasize this i don't want to to to pretend that we are in a
58:07 completely different universe where everyone has accepted the need for example for debt neutralization no i don't think we're
58:13 there but i do think that we have crossed so in in that sense i don't think we've lived through that
58:19 famous hamiltonian moment yet but there's echoes of that i mean we have actually taken decisions
58:26 which a few years back would have a few months back would have been completely unheard of
58:31 uh agreeing on on on a financial instrument where a big
58:37 chunk is outright grants who would have thought this was possible before you know france and germany
58:43 together came up with a proposal and then the commission run with it and then the council eventually agreed so
58:49 i am cautiously optimistic uh and i think we are recognizing we're in
58:54 new territory how we move move ahead uh is remains still a question mark
59:02 thank you george for any of the other panelists like to uh address that uh demetrius
59:09 i just want to say that i believe that the term we are using that europe has
59:16 survived many crises is not quite correct europe has not survived the crisis
59:23 europe has grown up from almost nothing to what it is today
59:28 when i joined the european commission in 1981 when my country joined as a member
59:34 state the european the european economic community at that time was a customs union a common
59:41 agricultural policy and development policy there was nothing on energy there was nothing on
59:47 environment of course there was not a common currency there is not even what is today called common foreign
59:54 security policy there is nothing on education not even programs so
1:00:00 in in the span of a career because i spent 30 years in the european commission
1:00:06 i joined the europe which was limited to three areas and now europe is relevant on every
1:00:14 aspect of the life of all its citizens and i think that if you look at the
1:00:21 attraction power of europe outside europe to third countries
1:00:27 then you understand what is the value added of europe so europe is not the product of ideology
1:00:35 like the the totalitarian ideologies of the 20th century that have led to
1:00:41 millions of deaths europe is based on a simple principle that cooperation is better
1:00:48 than conflict and on the basis of this
1:00:53 the only thing that can really undo europe or destroy europe
1:00:59 is the will of its citizens because europe needs to be supported by all the citizens of each member state
1:01:08 anytime not only at the time of accession and we we experienced this with brexit
1:01:14 when the british people decided that they don't like europe which is their sovereign right
1:01:20 they were allowed to go so europe needs to explain
1:01:26 to all its citizens every day the value added so that it has their support but i i
1:01:32 agree with the results that it is mainly a perversion of some academics that they
1:01:39 always see the dark side of the coin and not i'm not pretending that
1:01:47 when we're living in the real world europe is not the product of a historic process
1:01:52 or a historic necessity is the product of some bright politicians
1:01:59 of elites yes but this project of the elites has now been endorsed and don't forget that in the
1:02:07 last few years we have seen an increase in the positive
1:02:12 attitude of the european citizens towards the eu thank you quite right about the
1:02:19 academics i'm always being admonished by my peers for being far too optimistic about the european union but
1:02:25 i will always continue to be so we have a question uh from a participant um colton ames
1:02:32 so thank you for posting this a few this will be for any any of the four of you that would like to address this a few u.s publications have written
1:02:39 about concerns of quote unquote vaccine nationalism and international competition when a vaccine
1:02:45 is ready for distribution is that a concern amongst eu nations and how could that be addressed
1:02:55 i mean i i referred a little bit in my initial intervention about the historic
1:03:01 decision of the member states to ask the european commission the eu
1:03:08 institution to negotiate and and conclude all the agreements on the vaccines with
1:03:15 all the pharmaceutical companies so this is a very
1:03:20 important step it is not foreseen in our legal system every member state
1:03:27 has the power to make its own purchase but it was on terms of solidarity and i will not
1:03:33 forget the statement of the german minister who said that germany could have bought
1:03:40 all the taxes it needs and more quickly but because of they feel that they have
1:03:46 to be sorry there they have to socially dirty to the others they agreed not only that the contract will be
1:03:54 negotiated by the european commission but also the distribution among member states
1:03:59 will be equal proportional to their population and on top of that
1:04:05 we just heard today that the price that the eu has obtained from pfizer the company
1:04:12 is better than the american prize
1:04:18 thanks one more thing maybe also just the concept of public goods is uh
1:04:26 is is the one toward which the vaccines are are are are coming closer so
1:04:33 vaccines are probably good and as probably good they uh they they enjoy of this uh of this
1:04:40 support from uh all the member states to uh to uh to purchase on behalf of the of
1:04:47 the european union i agree with matrix that this is historical indeed
1:04:54 okay thank you um another question from a participant uh how likely is it that the eu's new
1:05:01 budget and the coronavirus recovery package will be adopted this year considering the threat of vita from
1:05:07 hungary and poland
1:05:13 a quick response to this and which i'm not going to be the only one to to we already have a couple of days ago a
1:05:22 an interim agreement i guess with the european parliament eva can say more about this i guess um as for a veto um
1:05:31 look hungary is going to be one of the main recipients so i don't exactly see them shooting themselves in the foot
1:05:38 so um you know i think that there will be some back and forth
1:05:44 with with the rule of law provisions which are there and very important that it's very important that they're there but i
1:05:50 don't foresee a problem in the final decision what i am
1:05:56 concerned about is the rollout because the truth is that money is not
1:06:02 going to flow for some months in 2021 and by that time especially since we're
1:06:08 going to be in a probably double dip recession here because we had a pickup in the third quarter but the
1:06:14 fourth quarter is not going to be very good that's going to make things more complicated for countries they will need to go further in the red
1:06:22 by spending themselves before they get some money some help from the nff or from the
1:06:30 next generation eu so that that's an issue there's an issue of time consistency here in terms of uh but in terms of the
1:06:36 actual decisions i'm not too worried i i i think that i think that
1:06:43 the real question is about the rule of law and the rule of law mechanism what will happen with
1:06:49 with rule of law mechanism and i my my fear would be not to be
1:06:56 watered down because 67 percent from euro barometer
1:07:01 the the data is that sixty-seven percent of the eu citizens support rule of law
1:07:06 mechanism which in that respect means that if the country is not uh spending according to the rules the
1:07:13 funds to be to be stopped so this is in a way to make the union
1:07:19 what what our citizens expect
1:07:26 and if i may um i actually think we have made a very
1:07:31 bold step ahead the last uh few days so um i think the initial agreement
1:07:37 um having basically the german presidency and the council agreeing for um extra
1:07:44 money for a bigger bad jet that would be included in the mff
1:07:50 it's it's already strong enough to overcome any further resistance and i think rule
1:07:56 of law was very important because it showed that europe is willing to do this step and
1:08:02 um it would be a lose-lose if countries like hungary would insist and create further
1:08:09 obstacles to to this direction i think uh we progressed fast and there is a completely different
1:08:16 approach as i said to this crisis than the way we handle the previous economic crisis
1:08:22 and i think we all here speak from experience that in this case europe was uh better prepared and more willing to
1:08:29 collaborate and merkel said actually that in this crisis we cannot do it alone even germany cannot stay alone
1:08:35 so we have to collaborate i think uh if we uh listen to her this statement
1:08:42 um we will overcome all the obstacles and and i have the feeling that um we are more optimistic now after the
1:08:48 recent developments and the agreement for rule of law okay thank you so i have a question
1:08:55 forever actually so you can continue here this is from frank um even before the pandemic many
1:09:01 commentators in the media were bemoaning how far europe is behind the us and china
1:09:06 in terms of its technology industry the pandemic has made it clear how dependent and to some extent
1:09:12 vulnerable europe is on american and chinese technology platforms to what extent
1:09:17 has the pandemic crystalline crystallized an awareness that europe needs to find ways to spur the expansion
1:09:24 of its indigenous technology industry what plans are being discussed to correct the situation
1:09:32 well yes that that's the main question that we are trying to respond to uh with with actions and and with uh
1:09:39 by taking initiatives and by doing legislation so this is why i said we are trying to invest more in the in
1:09:45 strengthening the ecosystems and the transition to more innovative business models
1:09:51 um and um actually trying to create an environment for scale up by
1:09:57 taking down the barriers that we have to manage to have a real digital single
1:10:03 market so i would say we're not doing uh bad maybe we don't have unicorns but we do have a very
1:10:09 um smart and innovative environment for um for companies in europe and um
1:10:16 i say in in research we are actually um very balanced very close to to child and
1:10:22 us and the same time we're very proud because we are also following our ethical rules and and
1:10:30 the european values and principles that that we are very committed to so if you would ask me if we would
1:10:36 compromise privacy to move faster as china does i would say i don't think this will happen
1:10:42 and i don't think anybody would want that and the same time yes in u.s you have more more funding
1:10:52 for for innovation but it's more market driven in europe we try to to make sure that we
1:10:58 will um legislate properly and we will control the technology to be complementary for citizens so to achieve
1:11:04 a better quality uh for citizens so if you understand our perspective and where we come from i
1:11:11 would say we actually do very well and um we have a lot of like big companies that
1:11:17 uh once we take down the final barriers we have in our in our think in our in our digital
1:11:22 market the european market i think they will grow very fast and already we saw
1:11:28 um i think alipay entering and uh receiving a license in in luxembourg to
1:11:34 to start working with eu i think this shows that europe is really a big market that they are trying to approach
1:11:42 and it's up to us to uh properly uh fix everything and remove the friction to to manage to be
1:11:50 equally competitive but under our own values um
1:11:56 without compromising that so maybe maybe late but it's better late than sorry for
1:12:02 for europe and i think still we do quite quite well if you check the competitiveness index
1:12:10 between china u.s and eu okay thanks any comments on the other
1:12:16 panelists okay um so another question
1:12:22 from a participant sort of a general question here in the long term what approach is more
1:12:28 likely to be adopted by the eu more supernationalism or intergovernmentalism taking into
1:12:34 consideration that several eu national governments would like to see the eu only as an economic project and i guess
1:12:40 i could add on to that question what what effect is this current crisis likely to have on the the move towards supranationalism or
1:12:47 intergovernmentalism and that wouldn't treat any
1:12:52 i could say a few words concerning i mean i think that it is now clear that
1:13:00 europe is not only an economic project
1:13:06 it is true that some political forces in some member states especially in the uk
1:13:12 would have liked to have europe only as economic organization's economic project but
1:13:20 since the beginning although europe started with very concrete economic measures
1:13:26 the fathers of the european integration have always had a political ambition in europe is not
1:13:32 just about interests it's about values and i think now this is more clear and i believe that in
1:13:38 the near future because of the brexit which is of course a big loss
1:13:44 for europe the the forces that would like to keep europe only as
1:13:49 economic projects will not be strong enough to to make to make it to
1:13:54 to stop this this political project now on the issue of intergovernmental
1:14:02 towards supranational i think this is a false
1:14:09 dilemma it is i have nothing against the academic
1:14:14 community but i think it has been exaggerated by the academicians
1:14:20 i think it is a practical question that needs a practical reply sometimes it's
1:14:26 better to go through the european institutions because it's more effective it's more efficient
1:14:33 as in the case of the european commission negotiating the contracts with the
1:14:38 pharmaceutical industries in some other cases it's better to go with
1:14:43 all 27 member states together because europe is not a federal state at least
1:14:49 not yet it's not the united states of europe and europe the european institutions only have the
1:14:56 competences that the 27 have decided to give to it so the situation is not comparable
1:15:02 with the us so i think that this dilemma should go through in the governmental or
1:15:08 through supernatural which has been a top dilemma in the 80s and the 90s during
1:15:15 the lower period does not in my view make sense anymore
1:15:22 if i may come in on this one i think that in the last crisis we saw
1:15:28 peak into governmentalism and that's for a very simple reason we had creditors and debtors once some
1:15:35 countries are lending to others they are going to circumvent any kind of community method and go for direct
1:15:42 negotiations between nation states this time around
1:15:48 i think we have some slightly different beasts and i think whether we you know notwithstanding the immediacy's
1:15:54 points about you know making not making too much of the two concepts i think that we are
1:16:01 moving towards more of a community method and we're pulling back from extreme intergovernmentalism and that's
1:16:09 that's seen in the fact that the commission has been tasked to borrow on behalf of the community on
1:16:15 behalf of the union and to the extent that we manage to generate new owned resources at
1:16:20 community level which are going to be managed by the commission and somehow dispersed by the commission
1:16:27 that's going to be another move further away from intergovernmentalism for sure the two will coincide
1:16:32 but it's so it's a question of balance it's a question of what we what dominates and we had we went too
1:16:38 far in one direction hopefully we're correcting it now okay thanks yes
1:16:45 mclennan okay thank you uh well uh yeah i i think in the same into
1:16:52 the same direction but uh monet once uh said that uh will the power european
1:16:59 community now we need european citizens and i'd like to stress on on that do you have european citizens i
1:17:07 think yes uh people are more and more more
1:17:12 proud of being of being citizens of the european union and actually education helps us a lot
1:17:21 you are familiar with erasmus program erasmus was a big push and
1:17:28 big equalizer of how we perceive the word about what uh what we dream what we we expect so
1:17:35 yes i believe uh this this one in addition will uh will help us a lot we are
1:17:41 talking now also about one more freedom the freedom to uh the freedom of knowledge the freedom of
1:17:48 teach everywhere so these things matter a lot and and they are building uh a real real um a real community
1:17:56 which will allow which will allow more integrated european union to happen
1:18:05 okay um i think we have time for two more questions uh both of which are actually internal questions so jonathan
1:18:11 is asking um how has the eu addressed covid management in refugee centers
1:18:16 uh can we um so i'm just taking my microphone still can we say these efforts have been successful and limiting the viruses
1:18:23 spread and with the burning of the maria camp in in greece um how have officials there tried to keep
1:18:29 the one disaster from compounding the other
1:18:35 teachers okay first of all i think one who has to to underline the fact
1:18:41 that the the treatment of refugees in europe is by far better than in any
1:18:49 other point of of the planet this is i think the starting point
1:18:54 europe is a model and we are proud for the way that we are treating this
1:19:00 massive move of people refugees and migrants
1:19:05 and it is not always easy so uh now
1:19:12 uh on this specific question about uh maurya and the the the the center for
1:19:19 refugees yes i mean greece has been under a lot of pressure
1:19:25 for many years just to remind you that in 2015 there was about one million
1:19:32 refugees that arrived in greece a country of 10
1:19:37 million a country that has never been used to receive migrants and this has
1:19:43 created a lot of also administrative problems but also other problems
1:19:50 i think the government should be congratulated that the month after this center was burned down they
1:19:56 managed to establish in a record time a new infrastructure with the financial
1:20:02 to the always assistance of the european union who is spending a lot of money for the refugees in
1:20:09 greece in italy but also in third countries and one should not forget that sometimes and recently very often
1:20:18 the refugees and the migrants are instrumentalized by third countries in order to blackmail europe this is
1:20:24 what happened at the beginning of this year when we support the official support
1:20:30 of the turkish government they tried not to to to push thousands of uh illegal
1:20:37 migrants or non-authorized migrants to to europe so it is a complete question there are
1:20:44 some very promising proposals by the european commission
1:20:49 that will go to the castle very soon about a new approach a new strategy but it's not an
1:20:56 easy task for europe but before criticizing europe i think
1:21:01 one has to bear in mind that nevertheless despite the shortcomings europe is still
1:21:06 treating the refugees and the migrants in the best way compared to any other country including
1:21:12 other western countries
1:21:17 i could i could adapt to this point um so it's a very interesting question
1:21:22 because i i will agree with the meetings so pointing fingers it's
1:21:28 quite busy especially um when you can point fingers to italy and greece
1:21:33 uh for uh receiving the main burden of the immigration flow of flows but there is no proposal on
1:21:42 how an uh europe could have european strategy implemented to uh to deal with immigration crisis in
1:21:49 terms of the pandemic i wouldn't say it it was
1:21:54 it was a bad handling of the case i think we was they were quite uh protected there are services there
1:22:01 provided for all and this has nothing to do with the with the fire that also it's now under investigation if it
1:22:07 started internally and how and why and this is something that was inherited by a leftist
1:22:13 government a populistic government and these are also the results by um facing the reality because it's very
1:22:20 easy to point fingers or like being on the good side of the story and then when you have the
1:22:25 responsibility maurya happens and now we have to solve maurya and
1:22:30 europe had to actually take very bold steps and now present with immigration
1:22:35 strategy that we are ready to amend it hasn't opened uh yet for amendments in the european parliament
1:22:42 but that all the member states are trying to take part of the responsibility of what's
1:22:48 happening and also to make sure that um since turkey is a safe country for
1:22:56 refugees and migrants how we can re-establish this relation
1:23:01 and make sure they will take back the people that are left and trapped on the islands because
1:23:07 if they're not on the island they cannot be returned although they don't uh apply um for for refugee status and
1:23:15 they are immigrants economic immigrants so these are problems that we have to sort at the european level
1:23:21 it's too big of a problem to be left to greece and italy to handle
1:23:26 so we were trying to handle the pandemic in a european level and
1:23:31 all the countries are not equally successful um so i i spent a couple of months in
1:23:37 brussels and i was actually in the worst uh in the country that dealt worse with a
1:23:44 pandemic i had like 20 times more contaminations than greece the same population
1:23:51 and just with a full lock down they are starting now slowly slowly to to decrease
1:23:56 so um i think we are all struggling to create a common response for similar challenges
1:24:04 because as miss kunovan said very well we don't have the full competency to
1:24:10 implement a european health strategy so we are trying to do that we're trying
1:24:16 to cross lines and and coordinate in order to at least um
1:24:23 deal with the pandemic while it lasts and this is is not easy and it's the first time we see the will of member
1:24:30 states to um to collaborate and exchange health data so it was it
1:24:35 would not be the case if the pandemic was not there it would be so difficult because of the problems
1:24:41 that the legal problems we have that now indeed there is a catalyst and an acceleration of uh
1:24:48 bringing together a health strategy um that if something like that happens
1:24:53 before we will be better prepared not just for the european citizens but of course for uh immigrants and and refugees
1:25:02 so i would say i would say this is a picture that we cannot separate we have to see what's happening
1:25:08 in europe okay thanks um so there's a comment
1:25:16 uh from a from a participant so i'll just pass that on uh this has been a great panel um but
1:25:21 the eu has nothing to be proud of uh concerning their treatment of migrants and refugees
1:25:28 um one final question before we close this is from uh heather at the institute um she was
1:25:35 curious about how the eu can respond to unequal circumstances for women in the workforce of covert public health
1:25:42 measures that's for any of the four of you
1:25:50 i didn't understand the question could you repeat that yeah she was curious about how the eu can respond to unequal
1:25:57 circumstances for women in the workforce of covered public health measures
1:26:12 there is there is no common response first of all to to be an equal and i would say we are preparing now
1:26:18 there is a legislative episode legislation that's coming on how we can
1:26:24 change um the the contract for for workers in the digital era to
1:26:30 protect the rights uh i wouldn't say that we should see it under the light of the gender but um
1:26:37 if there is something more specific i i can i can definitely respond but i think now citizens
1:26:43 so um um also women they have the option to work um from home so they have alternatives
1:26:50 so i think um it's done more easy and i think they are protected by the same laws that
1:26:57 applied until now but if there is something specific that has happened then maybe i can understand exactly how to respond
1:27:07 um okay so yeah we were heading for about an hour and a half so we're just about there so
1:27:13 at this point i think we'll we'll wrap it up um i just want to say uh thank you very
1:27:19 much to the approximately 50 participants number's gone down a little bit now we're about 44 so that that's great
1:27:26 and i just want to uh thank very much um mclenna kunova the eu ambassador to the council of europe
1:27:32 uh george papa constantino uh professor european university institute
1:27:38 um eva kali who's a member of the european parliament i'm from greece and then demetrius
1:27:43 curculis who uh as dimitris you were tired at the
1:27:48 moment i i couldn't find anything for you at the moment no no i i'm only x i'm x your master and
1:27:55 x for deputy foreign minister okay x lots of things all right and i will shortly be an ex-moderator
1:28:01 for this but at this point i think i'll i'll hand over to frank
1:28:08 and i just want to echo uh john's thanks this was a wonderful panel really
1:28:13 informative enjoyed interacting with you listening to your talks and thank you
1:28:21 all round of applause please thanks
1:28:28 right thank you i will go ahead and uh finish today's session and remind everyone that uh
1:28:34 tomorrow's session at ten o'clock uh eastern standard time will be focused on the transatlantic
1:28:40 relationship um and it should be uh an excellent uh excellent talk
1:28:46 all right thank you so much thank you frank thank you uh i went for a book
1:28:58 all right john thank you so much uh i think that was really really
1:29:04 excellent well thanks frank that was the that's the first time i've done anything like that and it was um uh
1:29:10 sorry 24 people more people on facebook so yeah no we had 75 people we had 75 people so that's that's uh
1:29:17 that's a good number i think tomorrow we're gonna we're going to get better than that good well i've um i've been nagging my
1:29:24 two sons who were down in bloomington and told them they had to

Description of the video:

0:00 um jeffrey coleman uh whom i've gotten to know over the summer
0:06 and uh have really enjoyed uh listening to and learning about his research over over the summer
0:13 jeffrey is an associate professor of spanish at marquette university where he specializes in contemporary
0:19 peninsula or spanish and catalan theater and popular culture he's a graduate of the romance languages
0:26 and literatures program at the university of chicago and has published multiple articles on
0:32 immigration race and national identity in the spanish context
0:37 in the journal of catalan studies symposium estreno and other venues
0:43 his first book the necropolitical theater race and immigration on the contemporary spanish stage
0:49 was came out in may of 2020 it explores how the intersections of
0:56 race and immigration manifest in spanish theater from 1991 through
1:02 2016. he is currently working on his next book project which is tentatively
1:08 titled espana negra the consumption and rejection of blackness in contemporary spain
1:14 uh this book explores the ways in which spanish media popular culture and literature
1:19 have portrayed appropriate have portrayed and appropriated blackness from the early 20th century
1:26 to the present uh his talk today will be black spain consumption rejection and
1:31 necropolitics um and i'm really looking forward to hearing what you have to say jeffrey i'll let you take the stage all right
1:39 thank you so much uh good afternoon everyone i'd like to begin by first thanking dr frankfast
1:45 uh new shad and the institute of european studies here at indiana university for the invitation
1:52 um i'd also like to thank everyone else who's in attendance uh for taking the time to attend
1:57 in the midst of what's been a tumultuous week as we confront election anxiety and zoom fatigue of it
2:03 being a friday and so my lecture today is a combination of two projects uh in part connecting to my
2:12 first book manuscript which deals with the racialization of immigrants in spanish theater and my second book project looking at
2:18 the appropriation of blackness in contemporary spanish popular culture and my objective today is to give an
2:25 overview of black spain and to demonstrate that spain has a paradoxical relationship
2:31 with blackness which is continuously evolving particularly in our allegedly
2:36 post-racial era and just as a warning there will be some images containing graphic nudity
2:41 um dead bodies and violence over the last 30 years spain's
2:47 demographic landscape has been radically transformed as a result of immigration such that the nation is now a
2:53 multiracial and multicultural state the influx of immigrants since the early 1990s has
3:00 been described as among other things a flood an avalanche an invasion and a
3:05 seismic phenomenon these references to natural and military disasters
3:10 articulate a notion of immigration as a threat to the political and cultural well-being of
3:15 the spanish nation-state in 2004 spain became the world's second largest
3:21 receiver of immigrants after the united states a position it would maintain until the syrian refugee crisis of 2015.
3:29 and this is important to mention in part due to spain's political geopolitical position not being as
3:36 carefully understood as it should be the goal of my talk today is to focus on the development of black spain
3:43 from immigration to citizenry in terms of how this population has been understood articulated and appropriated by the
3:50 state and its cultural production in order to demonstrate how race particularly blackness lives in spanish
3:57 society today okay so first things first let's unpack
4:04 a question that i've heard far too many times in my life uh there's black people in spain
4:10 yes and there have been black people in spain in large quantities as far back
4:16 as the 16th century and particularly in the southern cities of andalusia such as sevilla and kalis
4:24 and though today most of spain's black population is concentrated in the largest cities
4:30 of madrid barcelona and valencia
4:35 to understand the development of black spain we must first look at spain's push
4:40 towards europeanization after the end of the franco regime in 1975
4:45 which would allow the nation to finally disavow the famous phrase africa and piazza los pirineos africa
4:52 begins in the pyrenees a phrase that pejoratively references spain's historical connection to africa
4:58 due to centuries of islamic occupation and influence spain's disavowal of the phrase must be
5:05 read as an approximation to whiteness as northern europe has seen spain as less white and
5:12 therefore less european as a result of its mixed cultural heritage therefore europeanization
5:18 allows for spain to finally achieve whiteness and this hits a peak in 1986 with
5:23 spain's entrance into what would become the european union
5:29 as an implied requirement for entry spain developed its first immigration policy
5:35 in 1985 known as the la organica sobelos de recios libertades de los second heroes
5:41 in espana or the organic law about the the rights and freedoms of
5:46 foreigners in spain and within the preamble of this law uh spanish lawmakers added an exception
5:53 clause for people from former colonies territories and diasporic groups
5:59 that resulted from spain's colonial history and this exception was made because
6:04 these people possessed identitarian or cultural links to spain and so this exception clause was
6:10 particularly important because it gave preferential treatment to people from these countries and so um
6:17 on this list you have iberia americans or what we in the u.s refer to as latin americans
6:23 the portuguese the philippines andorians equatorial ghanaians uh sephardic jews and those from
6:30 gibraltar interestingly enough the descendants of maurice ghost
6:35 the muslims who were expelled from spain are not on this list but that'll we'll have to return to that
6:40 another time this exception clause was radically
6:46 changed in the 1990s after the creation of the schengen zone when powerful eu
6:52 nations france and germany called for spain to remove the claws so that migrants could not have free
6:58 access to all of europe upon arrival to spain right and so for
7:03 those of you not familiar with the schengen zone it allows for free movement within the zone once you've entered one
7:10 of the member states um and so this also connects back to this notion of africa
7:16 and los pirineos given that spain's location at the end of europe right and
7:22 and also being a site where many migrants were entering and there were some fears amongst other eu
7:29 states about what that would mean for immigration into their nations
7:35 spain's achievement of european status coincided with an economic boom put on
7:41 display in 1992 with the celebration of four major events madrid was named the european capital of
7:48 culture a few months later barcelona hosted the summer olympic games and in the fall sevilla hosted the
7:54 world's fair whose theme that year was the age of discovery which coincided with the october
8:01 celebration of the 500th anniversary of christopher columbus's arrival to the americas
8:06 although the spaniards would not have used the term arrival that's my introduction they would use
8:12 discovery these four events not only put spain on the map in terms of
8:17 europe culturally but also on the map for migrants looking for work as there was a large construction boom
8:24 in uh in preparation for these four events and as such the patera invasion
8:30 quote-unquote began pateras are small packed uh small boats packed
8:36 with migrants that attempt to cross the mediterranean sea to reach to reach mainland spain or are referred
8:42 to as cayucos in the case of boats that traverse the atlantic ocean to reach the spain's canary islands
8:50 so this photo here by mexican photojournalist narciso conteras captures the death of migrants who died
8:57 likely of dehydration or starvation during their journey across the mediterranean
9:03 however the largest cause of death for migrants is actually drowning from boats that
9:09 have capsized at sea or when migrants attempt to swim to shore and are pulled by
9:15 currents or are simply too weak to continue swimming to shore and so in the
9:22 map here you can see that there have been thousands upon thousands of deaths
9:27 as a result of this phenomenon and the magnitude of these deaths draws a very eerie parallel
9:33 to the middle passage of the transatlantic slave trade though in this case most of the black
9:38 bodies voluntarily made the journey across the sea and and throughout the 1990s and early
9:45 2000s spain was the destination par excellence for many of these boats
9:51 though in recent years italy and greece are and malta are receiving the brunt of this
9:57 migratory flow and the tragedy that comes with it and so i say all this to demonstrate
10:02 that yes there are black people in spain and but the vast majority of them are immigrants
10:07 or their descendants the since the spanish census does not
10:14 account for race it is hard to say how many black people are in spain today and regarding the the
10:22 notion of a census there are only two nations in europe that account for
10:27 race in their census and ireland and the united kingdom and many nations throughout europe have
10:34 different reasons for why they do not and the majority having to do with world war
10:39 ii and the notion of that hitler and the nazi party used the census to single out people and
10:47 um the dutch also refer to this as you know only nazis count people um and count and divide people right and
10:54 so in spain um there is no way to get an exact number of
11:00 how large this population is what we do know as historian antomi teog notes
11:06 is that quote the majority of black africans in spain today came since the middle 1980s the majority
11:13 from western africa and from the 1990s on from nigeria and central africa
11:19 this generation has had to face growing racism in spanish society discrimination and jobs and housing the
11:25 rising importance of the neo-nazi faction and the ill treatment of the spanish police and administration end quote
11:32 since we only have immigration data to rely on we cannot calculate the number of second and even
11:38 third generation black people living in the nation today children and grandchildren of those who immigrated
11:45 in the 1980s and 90s and also another part to factor in is you have to
11:51 consider black latin americans who are coming from countries such as cuba uh colombia
11:58 the dominican republic etc and so that um also has made it hard to get an ex a
12:04 an approximate number um in regards to the community and so as a result rather than delve into
12:10 quantitative analysis because that's not the lane that i occupy and i would like to focus the
12:15 rest of my time on the bifurcated and paradoxical way in which blackness operates
12:21 a consumption and rejection in the summer of 2009 spanish fast food
12:29 restaurant sien montaritos launched an ad campaign to promote its latest deal
12:34 all items on its menu would only cost one euro on wednesdays and for those of you not
12:41 familiar with cn montaditos montaditos are sandwiches about the size of maybe the palm of your hand like my
12:47 clicker maybe and then the name coming from the fact that they at one point
12:53 served a hundred different types of montaditos so you could have them with smoked salmon smoked salmon
13:00 mixed with you know uh cream cheese chorizo uh spanish omelet there were you know
13:07 100 options there's actually more now but at the time there were only 100 options and and given that the economic crisis
13:14 had just started to really affect spain at the time and this deal was actually expanded not soon
13:22 after this ad campaign to include sundays as well uh montaditos was particularly popular
13:29 with college age students and those in entry-level jobs but obviously as the economic crisis
13:35 worsened more and more people were going to see montaditos because it was a cheap way to get
13:40 a meal in the two images you see here there's
13:47 an anthropomorphized piece of dark bread standing at a podium that explains the deal
13:53 and he is waving to the crowd or customers wearing a pin that says yes
13:59 a phonetic transliteration of yes we can the famous slogan uh connected to barack
14:06 obama's presidential election and so why would a spanish restaurant use this phrase
14:12 transliterated and what does it mean in the context of fast food and the spanish economic crisis
14:21 so i think there's three possible interpretations perhaps there are more the first being yes we can feed you
14:27 right as a restaurant that they have the capacity and the resources to keep providing food
14:33 for customers yes we as a nation can get through the crisis and yes our company can afford to do
14:41 this in a time in which many companies were struggling financially
14:47 uh san montaditos does quite well during the crisis in part due to campaigns like this and
14:53 also if we think back to 2008 um during the campaign of the obama campaign yes we can it very
15:01 much connected to this notion of hope which is very much a theme within his campaign and and so using and appropriating the
15:10 phrase actually is a way to inspire hope in the customers who are uh who are patronizing
15:18 who are who are attending and eating at this restaurant
15:23 obama has also inspired ultra other cultural phenomena in spain for example in barcelona on granvilla
15:31 one of the biggest streets in the city there's gastropub obama which now has a statue of president
15:37 obama with whom you can sit and take pictures while you wait for a table or space at the bar
15:43 uh it is worth noting that the bar existed before the election of president obama and it is known primarily for its
15:50 colonial east african decor as you can see it's a british american bar
15:56 it's pretty common for people to watch uh soccer games there um but you know particularly barsa games
16:03 and and british football games as well but the addition
16:08 of the barack obama statue helped to increase traffic from locals and tourists alike
16:16 the magnitude of obama's election has also influenced politics in spain in 2014 the
16:22 left-leaning political party podemos which means we can was founded by pablo iglesias and has
16:28 grown to become spain's third largest political party and in 2015 podemos says rita
16:35 was elected as the first black member of the spanish parliament as a representative of aligante
16:42 and so given the symbolic importance of barack obama's election in 2008
16:47 how can we read the spanish appropriations though we might see them as problematic
16:52 they fit in line with spanish admiration of international black figures including nelson mandela martin luther
16:59 king jr michael jackson prince and others and it also contributes to a notion
17:06 i would refer to as tiered blackness in which international black people are more palatable than black immigrants
17:14 or even black citizens in spain creating tears of black acceptability
17:20 and so speaking of palatability i'd like to move on to something sweet chocolate
17:27 one of spain's most beloved candies congitos which translates as little people from the congo
17:34 or little congolese people this brand was created in 1961
17:39 by saragosa based company fedi mai the name and original logo that you see
17:44 here was were created by juan tu de la feres who was inspired by the successful
17:50 congolese war of independence against belgium in 1960 when interviewed in 2003 he was asked
17:58 how he felt about the possible reading of the brand as racist and in his response he states that he
18:05 wouldn't have drawn the logo or proposed such a name today however
18:10 he uses temporal distance in order to wash his hands of any racial complicity by stating that things should be judged
18:17 according to their era and socio-political context and so i want to run through three
18:23 commercials to show how conquitos has evolved or at least shifted over time so you can judge the brand for
18:40 yourself [Music]
18:54 um [Music]
19:03 [Applause] [Music]
19:08 is okay in this first commercial from the late 1960s
19:14 screaming natives are snatched by a mysterious white hand as their leader shouts in a made-up language that rhymes
19:20 with lumumba the first prime minister of the congo this one remaining piece is transformed into
19:27 a piece of conquitos that is eaten by a white woman who says sonder chupite or the best translation i
19:33 could think of would be finger-licking good problematic iconography aside the
19:38 anthropomagic nature of this commercial clearly connotes a desire for blackness
19:44 in spite of its alleged savagery as as artist cara walker notes
19:50 commenting on european and white cannibalism quote there's a little bit of masochism
19:56 so much love and hate involved in eating something to kill something and eat it
20:01 it's very sexual very sensual unquote thus in eating blackness is deliciously
20:09 ingested thereby allowing spaniards to also sidestep national involvement in and exploitation
20:16 of africa while simultaneously transmitting a necropolitical message of dehumanization next
20:31 [Music] commercial
20:36 [Music]
20:50 in the 1990s shifts away from images of primals savage
20:55 conceptualizations of blackness to the urban imagery more so associated with black america
21:02 and this is in part due to the popularity of shows like the cosby show and artists like michael jackson in
21:08 prince thus in this 1994 commercial we transition
21:13 from the savage jungles of africa to the stereotypical urban landscape of the of a black
21:20 america the pimp the bouncer the club tina turner stevie wonder and even ray
21:27 charles chocolate is personified as blackness
21:32 in in a manner that is cool powerful and even sexy once again demonstrating the
21:38 acceptance of tiered blackness at the exact same time that spain has begun
21:43 building the border walls of celta and melia and large numbers of pateras and cayucos are
21:49 arriving on spanish shores okay last commercial
21:59 [Music]
22:08 [Music]
22:15 in this final commercial from 2017 we fused the concepts presented in the first two commercials
22:21 to transmit a message in which the consumption of blackness allows a female protagonist to see the
22:26 attractiveness of the young man trying to court her uh it's not you don't have a quite uh
22:33 clear zoom in but the the the candy he tries to present are m m's right so clearly um american
22:40 and so by eating conquitos at the existence of her friend allows her to see clearly and also for
22:48 him to become more spanish therefore elevating the candy to a level of panacea
22:55 the commercial slogan or to be authentic tastes better
23:01 connotes that blackness by means of conquitos is now an intrinsic part of spanish culture
23:08 and a part of spanish authenticity as you can see in these images the
23:15 conquitos logos has certainly changed over time i'm particularly interested in the
23:21 marketing decisions of the last decade or so in which
23:26 and so in which we have this figure that i'd like to call the innocuous
23:31 casper the ghost looking logo um it's the one point in conquito's history in which they've
23:38 removed the vast majority of the racial connotations attached to the logo
23:44 however as you can see in 2014 the big red lips get added back
23:49 um in what i can only imagine to be a vintage reconceptualization of the brand um
23:56 and so i haven't had a chance to make it to spain and or speak to any executives of the company but that's on
24:03 my list of things to do in the next few months and as i as i write and continue to
24:10 write on this brand and so here and you can see some other
24:16 examples uh one thing to note is in the bottom right in 2010 a conquitos introduced white
24:24 chocolate congeetos as in response to afro spaniards who
24:30 were starting to clamor that the brand was racist and so
24:35 the change in the logo but also the addition of white chocolate as a way to kind of
24:40 and soften the brand um although like i said earlier you know
24:46 once the the red lips are added back on in 2014 um
24:53 and it's and the lips are added to both versions the black and white chocolate
25:00 in 2018 conquitos released conquitos mix containing the original dark chocolate
25:07 plus white and now the introduction of new milk chocolate pieces to provide us with a larger with a new
25:14 experience of a larger spectrum of chocolate not racial options once again trying to toe the
25:21 line with regard to the racial connections between chocolate and blackness this mixed bag
25:28 is almost a confectionary version of if we all just mix together racism will disappear and so
25:35 this brings us to 2020 in which after the the murder of george
25:42 floyd on may 25th that sparked demonstrations across the globe
25:47 and the news um earlier this this year in that the aunt jemima uncle
25:53 ben's brands would change in the united states would change their logos black lives matter activists in spain
25:59 started the petition on june 8th demanding that chocolates la casa the owner of the congitos brand
26:06 pulled the candy from its production line because quote the existence of the conquitos brand is
26:12 an example of the things we still tolerate and those that we do not even notice by force of habit
26:18 even though they are causing incontestable harm to the fight against racism end quote um and it's also worth noting
26:26 that conquitos more than being a candy ends up becoming a term of endearment using giant air quotes there
26:34 for black children and so afro-spanish children are commonly referred to as conquitos
26:42 in schools and on the streets and because of this kind of nostalgic and
26:48 care that and many the large regard given to this brand
26:54 as of today this petition has over 6 000 signatures however more interesting with the
27:01 national backlash that this petition ignited encapsulated by the hashtag
27:07 conquito's lives matter um and so i'm going to walk you through
27:13 these these tweets and so the hashtag searched on twitter in response to the spanish black lives
27:20 matter activist promoting the the petition and so the what we see here
27:25 is that the hashtag quickly became a spy a space of white nostalgia yearning for
27:30 a time in which the issue of racial representation was not a discussion and so on the far
27:36 left those two uh that column and you can see that there is a juxtaposition
27:42 of the original conquitos logo with the spanish flag um and the spanish flag is kind of a
27:49 controversial symbol in and of itself in that many that fly the flag tend to be on the
27:56 right and when it's used as a symbolically in this way it tends to
28:02 have connections to the franco regime and and the dictatorship um and then the second quote which has
28:09 in english forever uh with the 1990s version of the
28:14 logo and so then what ends up happening next is very strange is that conquitos takes
28:20 a political turn as the far right party vox took a stand on congitos
28:26 and promoting it as an intrinsic part of spanish culture and so in the last four tweets you have um
28:33 the middle uh the top middle there um conquitos lives matter with a a poster
28:39 of santiago abascal who is the leader of this party um and then you see the banner for vox
28:45 viscaya so part of the basque country with the bag of conquitos uh at the bottom
28:53 right i love toledo don't stop coming and the hashtag here is particularly interesting lo nuestro primero ours first
29:02 right which could be a nod to the the notions of america first that we have seen here and then this
29:09 thread of tweets between rocia monasterio and ivanis pinosa de los monteros in which she says don't tell me you
29:16 can't you're not coming to for dinner tonight what a shame you're going to miss the dessert
29:21 as she happily eats her congitos and and then you have him uh and lugo at
29:27 miranda la cathedral casa romana um so lugo
29:32 the city of lugo is quite famous for its cathedral and the casa romana and and so this
29:38 notion of admiring a iconic spanish locations
29:44 while eating conquitos right in order to juxtapose the two uh to make the claim that congitos are
29:51 spanish and our spanish culture and therefore they should not be changed a month
29:59 after the petition launched the official conguitos twitter account sent out this
30:04 thread of tweets appealing to its consumers sidestepping both the petition and the
30:10 hashtag conquito's lives matter the brand makes claims to spanish authenticity
30:15 and purports its constant adaptation to change ending with
30:25 is a subtle nod to the conquitos lives matter camp in that todos erases those who have
30:32 been negatively affected by the brand and its image and then later on on the official
30:39 company website the brand went on to explain that it has already evolved implying that the work
30:45 of removing antiquated racial stereotypes has already been done and there is nothing left to do
30:53 upon hearing about the conquitos controversy a spanish design firm called sharp and sour
31:00 published a series of renderings to help us conceptualize how kongitos as well as two other famous brands
31:07 kolakau and negrita run rum could be rebranded in order to drop its racist
31:14 name and logo and so the name they chose coco is is a combination of chocolate
31:21 chocolate and peanuts focusing on the two ingredients of the candy rather than the very bizarre nod to
31:27 congolese independence and the logo is reminiscent of the anthropomorphic m ms that we have here in the united
31:34 states uh on the image in on the image on the right you can see that the designers poke
31:40 fun at conquitos and the controversy and its defenders by stating
31:47 the same taste as always now without the racism if la casa wanted to rebrand this candy
31:55 they easily could but in choosing not to have sided with far-right politicians
32:01 and their apologists who see kongitos as an ideological battleground against sensitive progressives and
32:08 identity politics and so blackness is consumed figuratively
32:14 and literally in spain through both positive and negative appropriations
32:19 however i'd like to talk now about rejection it's social artistic and political
32:24 repercussions in this 2003 photo by photojournalist javier baulus
32:30 you see an extreme representation of rejection spanish beachgoers that are unbothered
32:36 by the body of an african migrant laying just meters away from them and it's not clear
32:42 whether this um the body is if that if that person is dead or not um but
32:48 the the way that this photo captures the kind of lack of empathy is particularly important
32:56 as stated earlier there is a strong historical link between spain and africa and this link
33:03 is cemented in the spanish enclaves of celta and malia which you can see on the
33:08 map are on the african continent these territories have belonged to spain for centuries
33:15 but in our contemporary era have been spaces of great importance to the european project known as fortress
33:21 europe because and malia constitute the only hard borders between europe and africa
33:30 and so on this photo um this photo was taken at the border wall in melia you can see dozens of uh black african
33:37 men sitting atop the border fence as moroccan forces watch in the background
33:42 you can see the white trucks with arabic written on them and spanish forces stand beneath them in
33:48 the foreground dressed in riot gear to prevent their entry and so the border walls um were
33:55 constructed in these two enclaves in between 1994 and 1996 in response to mass
34:02 immigration at the time and these walls were later expanded and reinforced in 2005 after the
34:09 terrorist attack in madrid in march 2004 and so here you have another example uh
34:16 in which some migrants were trying to find a spot that was easier to hide in
34:21 although as you can see there is a guardian member on a ladder trying to reach them
34:31 okay and so i just wanted to show this graphic so you have a sense of how difficult it is to make it over
34:39 uh into celta and melia in this case you have the diagram of melea and so reading from right to left um so
34:46 leaving moroccan territory you have to make it up one of the new walls uh
34:51 this part that is uh e um las concertinas are barbed wire with
34:57 razor blades attached so you have to make it past three of those and then once you get to the top there's this
35:03 um this fence known as the vallabhas culante and so it's a fence that swings depending on the weight
35:09 right and so you have to be careful about how many people are going up at a time because then it could end up throwing everyone back
35:15 if you make it past that you have to make it through this mission impossible section of barbed wire make it over
35:22 another uh kind of vacillating a fence the viabasculante make it past the
35:29 moroccan forces then get over the original fence
35:34 past the spanish forces and then into the territory and so according to an investigative
35:40 report by pri for every 500 people who attempt to cross these border walls daily
35:46 only two are successful the low probability has led to the creation of
35:52 haragas in the mountains and and hills surrounding the two enclaves the term comes from the
35:59 moroccan arabic verb hrig which means to burn as the migrants often burn their passports and other
36:05 identification before attempting to cross so that they cannot be repatriated if
36:10 they are caught in contrast to the maroon communities that we know of in the caribbean uh in which
36:18 this being outside of the city constituted a space of liberation the haragas are liminal spaces of
36:25 rejection and also in comparison to the refugee camp known as the jungle in calais
36:30 france which embodies this liminal space within the eu the haragas are a liminal space between
36:37 africa and the eu in which migrants are neither accepted by morocco nor spain and so one of the things that
36:44 has happened in these communities the moroccan government over the last couple of years has ransacked these communities
36:50 and rounded up the migrants within them and transferred them to detention centers at
36:56 the southern end of the country on the border with western sahara and
37:02 there has been support from the spanish government financially to support this move which we consider kind of extra
37:08 territorial immigration policy although contrary to proper belief and
37:14 media coverage of border crossings at the walls or marine crossings by pateras and
37:19 cayucos sub-saharan african migrants were less than ten percent of all immigrants and only a fraction of these
37:27 enter through these means right the vast majority of sub-saharan african migrants
37:32 are either um those who receive asylum those who are refugees or who those who
37:38 for example those coming primarily from equatorial guinea who because of their connection colonial
37:44 connection to spain have kind of a fast-tracked immigration uh process
37:51 the rejection of the physical rejection of black migrants by land and sea
37:58 is the topic of a number of plays from 1991 to the present and so in my book the nectar political
38:04 theater race immigration on the contemporary spanish stage i coined the phrase necro political
38:09 theater to define what i observed happening on stage and so it's a theater and wherein
38:15 the immigrant is transformed into the fictionalized enemy whose non-whiteness is incompatible with
38:21 spanish society and national identity and therefore a threat to the european or more specifically the
38:28 spanish state and this is made evident by the fact that in every play
38:34 containing a black immigrant character or even black citizen that character always
38:41 dies um and there are some plays in which black women are present but the vast
38:48 majority portray men as sub-saharan african migration is almost 80 percent male um
38:54 and in that because these men are usually come over for work and then through family reunification are able to
39:01 bring their their wives and families and so through an analysis of immigration plays over a
39:08 25-year span it is not only evident that there is a trend in how black migrants and citizens
39:14 are represented but one that sees them as dispensable and unworthy of life and the reject this rejection of
39:22 black spanishness not only plays out physically on the border and theatrically on stage but also in
39:29 the realm of political rhetoric on october 2nd of this year carlos
39:34 alonso a politician from tenerife in the canary islands blurted out aquino somos negros
39:43 and in reference to the state's lack of investment in the island of tenerife
39:49 when reproached for the quote he doubled down in an attempt to clarify by saying quote fire
40:02 he later apologized in person and on social media in this tweet that you see but the
40:08 quotes speak volumes about nash spanish national identity today so the
40:13 first part of that quote implies that blackness is mutually exclusive from spanishness
40:18 thus that that black spaniards are an impossibility but it also makes clear that he understands
40:25 the oppression of black people in spain and elsewhere by making the comparison
40:30 between those uh citizens of the island of tenerife and black people in general
40:35 however the second part in positioning himself and the people of tenerife as normal in relation to citizens of
40:42 mainland spain he verified thereby indicates that black people are abnormal and thus undeserving
40:48 of equal treatment it's also quite interesting um in the in the tweet that he starts
40:56 off by saying like one doesn't always hit the mark um
41:02 and this idea of hitting the mark with regards to um political correctness um and
41:10 what i would agree in a basic decency and how you should speak about groups of people
41:15 is something that actually has come up with many politicians who have had gaffes of this nature
41:22 spain simultaneous consumption and rejection of blackness is questioned and dismantled in silvia
41:29 alberto pales brilliant play no es paisvar negras this is not a country for black women
41:35 this one woman show which she wrote and stars in depicts the story of her life as a black woman born
41:40 and raised in spain so her father is from nigeria her mother is from equatorial guinea they had met
41:47 in the 1960s in equatorial guinea when it was still part of spain once that country became independent in
41:54 1968 her parents moved to the basque country where she was born in the city of san
42:00 sebastian so born in 1976 she is a child of spain's transition to democracy
42:06 and comes of age just as the nation's immigration boom was beginning and thus spent much of her early years
42:13 as the only black child in many spaces and so i'd like to show one last clip
42:19 that that truly encapsulates the current black experience for so many
42:24 afro spaniards
42:42 [Music]
42:57 unfortunately there is a there continues to be a cognitive dissonance regarding who can
43:04 be spanish race alone excludes sylvia despite having been born and raised in spain
43:11 despite considering herself to be a bath citizen a catalan citizen and a
43:16 spanish citizen and this wasn't um an issue for her in the 1970s and 80s through her childhood
43:24 and continues to be an issue for many black spaniards today however in recent years black activists
43:31 artists and community groups have have sprung up to combat these
43:38 dynamics of discrimination and dehumanization that i've outlined in the talk and so
43:43 for example um afrofeminas is a black woman collective
43:49 uh that has an online magazine but also conducts workshops
43:55 around you know black feminism there's a store they support black businesses in
44:02 madrid barcelona and other cities and actually afrofeminas has now expanded to countries in latin america
44:07 and so they have um correspondence if you will in mexico argentina
44:16 peru and the dominican republic the black view uh is an association of
44:23 black actors and actresses uh that has that was founded in response to the oscars so white controversy
44:30 of a couple years ago in which they wanted to change the representation of black people
44:36 on screen whether it's uh well on stage as well so um theater television
44:42 and film uh in order to fight against typecasting as many black actors are a class for the same roles over and
44:49 over again about being the bouncer the pimp or the drug addict or the prostitute and what have you
44:55 and then black barcelona is a collective that organizes a annual meeting every
45:02 year it's actually taking place this weekend although given the rising um cases in spain i'm
45:07 not sure if it's going to happen in person in which there are speakers there's food there's music and it's a
45:15 great event to bring together the black community in barcelona and there's a similar event in
45:21 madrid called the festival uh afro conciencia which i spoke at a couple years ago
45:28 which is something similar right to bring together the black community around the arts and
45:33 also have critical discussions about race and spain in addition black spaniards have
45:40 published several books that speak to their experiences as racialized citizens the first um on the left lucia in baumio
45:48 and is one of the first black journalists on spanish television and she discusses her biracial identity
45:55 as as a black woman who grew up in madrid in her two novels uh photographer
46:01 ruben bermudez is photo novel e2 porque aries negro and you why are
46:06 you black um which also it is published first in spanish but there is an english edition
46:12 um explores what it's like to always be questioned on the account of one's
46:18 blackness and then feminist uh columnist and blogger desiree bella loved his book
46:24 uh sarah muhanegra and espana to be a black woman in spain explores the politics of hair skin and
46:31 self-esteem as a black woman in spain and so these organizations
46:36 events and writers are shedding light on a community that is often forgotten despite their hypervisibility
46:43 and making sure that spain's paradoxical relationship to blackness is acknowledged and so obviously there
46:49 is so much more work to be done in the fight for racial equity but there has been so uh
46:55 considerable movement particularly this year to change the perceptions and push spain to become more cognizant and
47:02 accepting of its present and future as not only a multicultural but also multi-racial state
47:10 thank you so much
47:19 thank you jeffrey for a very interesting talk and a very provocative set of ideas
47:26 i'd like to open up the floor to questions and i'd just like to invite people to
47:33 unmute themselves if they have a question and uh go ahead and ask it
47:43 um i'm gonna jump in jeffrey thank you so much i'm melissa denver i'm in the spanish and portuguese department i
47:49 really enjoyed your talk and has lots of different uh moving
47:54 pieces so it was really really fun to listen to and hear your ideas um i had two questions um one
48:02 if you could say a little bit you mentioned kolakau in passing if you could just say a little bit of
48:08 how you see that case if you've looked at it at all um and then the other question i had was
48:13 um i was actually going to ask you about some of the books that have been written and then you put some of them up at the end what about
48:19 film um could you talk a little bit about uh blackness and film and um
48:26 i'm thinking recent film you know like we used to have like cartalu used to be
48:32 something that people would put for in culture classes so i'm wondering um what's going on in film and are there
48:38 things that you would recommend more recent stuff that would be uh interesting to see thank you yeah thank you so much and
48:45 with regards to kolakau actually sharp and sour actually um i
48:51 didn't want to overload with photos but sharpen sour did um if you go to their instagram
48:56 they also did a rendering of what they would change kolakau to be i believe they kept the
49:02 name but they definitely changed all the imagery so kolakau is really famous for their theme song
49:08 uh which is about a a black man that cultivates cacao in the forest and it's very it's very
49:15 catchy but it's definitely thinking through notions of exploitative uh labor and and so there's been lots of
49:24 movement around kolakau as well to not only stop playing the theme song or come up with a
49:30 new one um but to change the uh the packaging and because in for years the packaging
49:37 simply had a black man like working in the field and or it would have a black woman
49:45 who was like carrying cacao on her head right and giving very kind of african notions of
49:51 the connection to chocolate um which for me you know i'm from ghana like it's the chocolate center of the
49:56 world i get it but at the same time like we have to think about the optics of this
50:02 in terms of uh you know exploitation and labor and so sharpen tower did a really great
50:07 job in that they changed the imagery to have simply two black people sitting at their
50:13 dining table drinking kolakau right it's the spanish version of nesquik
50:18 or for those of us you know from latin america who might know milo or milo um it's that right and so
50:24 thinking through how do you get people to continue to drink this um but with also removing the racial
50:29 connotations regard to film and one of the things that i have noticed is
50:36 that black spaniards haven't moved too much into film because of the expense
50:41 but also it's really hard to kind of break through those um those molds of training and this is
50:48 also something we're seeing a big issue in the theater in that there are lots of black actors
50:55 um and actresses and even a few playwrights like sylvia but all of them will tell you that
51:01 they've had a hard time getting this new generation um involved in part because they don't want
51:09 to deal with the racism to go through the training of you know theater school um and being trained by all white
51:15 teachers who are telling them the same things about them and their identity who are kind of re refining these
51:23 uh problematic tropes about black people and others right in terms of the asian community um and
51:29 and other groups that are marginalized in spain and so there aren't too many recent films and so
51:36 cartes de all moana and some of these films from the nine late 80s and 90s that we've seen for
51:42 years i don't think there's anything wrong with showing them but i definitely think we might have to move away from them um
51:50 for the sake of our students right and not perpetuating this notion that black people are continuously arriving
51:55 and thinking through the fact that you know there are second and third generation black people right and so
52:01 um a play like noise by you spire negras i actually have a recording of it um that the the playwright gave to
52:08 me so if that would be helpful i could pass it to you um and the text is published so i actually just taught it last week
52:14 um and it's a great text because it's short but then she drops in all of this like she does a
52:20 section that talks about kolakau in particular and so it would be a great way to teach these notions
52:27 of what it means to be black in spain but also how are brands and the government
52:34 right uh complicit in in this marginalization if i can just interject for a moment
52:40 jeffrey you would stop sharing your screen i think it could be everyone and um you know facilitate our discussion a
52:48 little bit okay perfect
53:00 well i'd like to jump in jeffrey happy to see you yeah nice to see you nora uh it's
53:07 been a while um yeah the the most recent memory i have of congeetos is in the little corner
53:13 store the dispenser is actually the little figure you know with the red lips open and you reach your hand
53:18 in for to grab the candies and that's that's still in the that's still in the candy store that's not you know that's
53:24 not going anywhere right what i would love to talk about
53:29 if like how do you how do you uh consider for example you know you mentioned like
53:34 dominicanos colombianos and we also have to talk about right like colorism in the
53:39 palatability the colorism in kind of the buying into the the blatant uh division between
53:47 sub-saharan or negrito congito versus you know blackness in all of its
53:52 forms and you know all of its forms and walks of life and how yeah is that entering into
53:57 i know there's a lot of plays obviously by uh moroccan immigrants now but um
54:04 yeah i guess what what do you get uh what do you what are you thinking about the spectrum of consumption of blackness by various
54:10 people of different backgrounds you know now living in spain but also kind of buying into either the you know the
54:18 spanish branding of it or kind of living on margins in silence yeah so one of the things that's
54:24 interesting is that you have the black community in spain is a little bit fractured and
54:30 that you have black latin americans and then you have black migrants from non-spanish-speaking
54:37 countries so all the senegalese the nigerians etc and then you have the equatorial
54:42 ghanaians who see themselves and most of them rightfully so see themselves as spanish
54:48 because spain was you know it was still part of spain up until 1968
54:54 and so for their parents right who came over in the 70s or even you know just after
55:00 franco or in the 1980s if they grew up in spain they simply are spanish right and so
55:05 they're not d yes they're dealing with the blackness but they're not dealing with the issues of citizenship and so on and so the conversations about
55:14 how radical to be in pushing anti-racist um modes of thought has been somewhat of
55:21 a fracturing issue right because there's the issue of language right that that the the folks from
55:28 equatorial guinea and the folks from latin america obviously speak spanish the ones who are coming from senegal
55:33 nigeria and others who had to learn spanish or catalan or what have you have different connections to their
55:40 identity within spain and also just different conceptualizations of their own blackness
55:46 however i will say that this year there has been a lot of consolidation particularly around um police brutality
55:54 and and things like what's happening with conquitos and kolakau i think everyone across the board is like no we
56:00 will no longer tolerate this that i think where the fracturing comes in is about how do you represent
56:06 blackness whose blackness becomes represented right because what you're starting to
56:11 see is um for example concha buicka right the famous um singer two of her brothers
56:18 are famous actors armando and borey buicka their oldest brother is a mayor in in
56:25 one of the small towns in mallorca they're a super famous family but they're of equatorial canadian
56:31 descent and so there seems to be notions of oh the folks from equatorial guinea think they're better than the
56:36 rest of us black people and those types of things um you know which is i guess similar to what we're seeing
56:42 in the u.s right with african americans versus other black groups within the united states um
56:48 with the [ __ ] movement and so forth um i don't think it's gotten to that extreme in spain but there is definitely
56:56 distinctions but i would like to think that this year has brought the community closer
57:02 together uh because of what's been happening uh around the corona virus
57:08 around police brutality and then of course the these marketing campaigns
57:17 if i can uh jump in with a question thank you for a superb uh presentation um so this is kind of a
57:24 two-part question about the the different figurations of the logo
57:32 so seeing the screen caps on twitter of people from blocks in the spanish far
57:37 right in particular seizing on the original logo or um
57:44 the second one that still involved um black figures holding spears it it reminds me in some way very much
57:52 of you know it the strong tenet of nationalist movements in the us is
57:59 an embrace of japan and israel they always reference as examples of this is the kind of ethnic state that that we
58:05 want um and and they present that as kind of like the spin oh you wouldn't think that we like that but we do because it embodies what we're
58:12 angling for here um so seeing vox using
58:17 this image that is in its inception um
58:24 you know a celebration of congolese independence um of congolese people um
58:32 creating this kind of fracture from european colonialism um and then
58:38 overlapping that onto the onto the spanish flag um i'm very interested um
58:46 if that same kind of resonance holds and more broadly from the far right in spain is there this kind of talk um
58:54 particularly when confronted with issues of immigration of um you know an
59:00 in ideal of africa for africans and and and they
59:07 gestured towards well development there instead of coming here um and imposing this kind of partition
59:13 between the two worlds really um the second part of my question is
59:18 with with the transformation from 2010 to 2014 with the re-addition of the red lips to the
59:25 to the figure um and is there are there people who who
59:32 would insist about the logo now that it isn't supposed to represent a black person
59:38 it's just it's it's just a figuration that that does not have any racial
59:43 connotation now yes i will start with the second one um
59:49 absolutely that is definitely the spanish conceptualization of conquitos and even kolakau
59:55 i mean there's couple other brands as well there's a rum called negrita there's a cafe called los negritos um
1:00:03 and all of them have similar kinds of iconography and it becomes not about race but about chocolate
1:00:10 itself right and so people also like well eminems what about m ms and they have you know they sound
1:00:16 black and you know it becomes it's like what what about islam right like trying to redirect
1:00:23 um and so yeah many people will claim that congitos has nothing to do with
1:00:28 race and but i think too like some people don't know the history of where the name came from or what how it came to be in
1:00:35 particular um actually uh in the early 70s there was a moment in
1:00:42 which um not sure if it was lumumba himself or the next prime minister was in spain
1:00:49 and they showed him kongitos and he laughed because he was like this is weird like i don't know what i'm supposed to do with this
1:00:56 um and so even and that was seen as kind of like oh this is a pass like the congolese think it's okay so therefore
1:01:03 we can continue to do this um and so yeah i would say that it has or
1:01:08 at least that's the way it's been articulated in rhetoric around the brand is that this is about chocolate and about
1:01:14 fun and about authenticity right and it's not about race and that if you are if you bring race
1:01:20 into it you're taking american ideals of seeing everything through racial lens and bringing it to spain
1:01:26 because in spain right like we're not racist our constitution even says so so
1:01:31 therefore we are not right um and that's where it goes with regards to the first question on vox and vox is you know kind of this
1:01:40 quintessential or far-right party that wants to return not necessarily to the days of
1:01:45 franco but franco-ist policies right and
1:01:50 and is a fascist party right and and wants to divorce itself from immigration i mean if they get
1:01:57 control of of parliament they're not they're gonna do what the maltese have done is let
1:02:02 people drown in the middle of the sea um they're not going to send out you know boats to save
1:02:07 people um they will more than likely invest more in morocco so that the moroccan
1:02:13 forces are the ones who are blamed for human rights offenses rather than the spanish at the border
1:02:20 um that kind of extratorialization of immigration policy which you know also comes above spain
1:02:27 right it's the eu kind of enforcing these policies upon spain
1:02:32 italy um france to some extent greece malta right and saying look you
1:02:38 are the border you have to control how many people are getting into your nation states
1:02:43 so that they don't flood into the rest of europe and so vox would definitely be a part of
1:02:48 that um it is my understanding too that volks would want to leave the eu
1:02:53 right and create kind of an isolationist state similar to what the us has tried to do over the last couple of years
1:03:00 um and in in the ways that you know the franco regime did right it was very much
1:03:05 isolated from the rest of europe for most of the 20th century and and so if you could have go back to
1:03:12 this you know espana primero no and do that i think yeah vox would love to
1:03:20 thank you
1:03:26 so i've got a question for you jeffrey um i want to go back to the uh yes squikhan
1:03:33 campaign and um i wondered what i'm wondering there is was there a
1:03:39 degree of self-racialization in that advertising campaign and what i mean by that
1:03:44 is you know with with the implicit implementation of austerity regimes in in southern europe
1:03:52 um there was a kind of racializing discourse that was emanating from northern europe from
1:03:57 germany in particular you know there were also like the the characterizations of the countries that
1:04:03 were were uh in financial trouble as pigs uh the acronyms that were used uh gypsy was
1:04:10 another acronym that was were used both of which i think have definite racial overtones um so so was there you
1:04:18 know this kind of appropriation of obama on the one hand and then as a kind of self-racialization
1:04:25 or an acknowledgement of the racialized status that spaniards had
1:04:30 within europe in that campaign that was was uh part of the appeal there yeah i had not considered it that way
1:04:37 but now that you frame it in that in those terms i totally agree um you see it a lot in spanish politics
1:04:45 particularly from the my um kind of the regional governments of the bass and the catalan and the
1:04:51 gallegos where they'll refer to themselves as the blacks of spain um the catalans have been using that
1:04:57 quite a bit during the independence movement um and then yes at spain as a whole
1:05:03 referred to as the blacks of europe right um because of their minoritized status
1:05:09 or minoritized stature within the eu um and so yeah i i
1:05:17 could definitely yeah i would argue that it definitely is to some degree self-racialization and this
1:05:22 understanding that within the context of the economic crisis spain has become more black
1:05:29 right and more minoritized and has gotten away from the whiteness that they work so
1:05:35 hard to achieve in the 1980s and early 90s
1:05:49 are there questions please feel free to uh unmute yourself uh introduce yourself and and ask
1:06:02 questions
1:06:13 well if there are no more questions i'd like to ask you all to go ahead and unmute and let's give
1:06:19 jeffrey a round of applause and and many any thanks
1:06:24 thank you so much it was it was really uh great to be able
1:06:30 to host this event and to learn more about your resource research jeffrey um
1:06:36 i'm also very glad to be able to announce that jeffrey is going to be joining joining us in the big ten next year he
1:06:42 has accepted a position at northwestern um that will
1:06:48 that will start in uh in the fall so congratulations jeffrey on on that as well thank you we're excited to
1:06:56 have you in the big ten thanks all right
1:07:01 great thank you all so much for attending um we will have a recording of this uh
1:07:07 event that can be shared with uh with with students and with others who are unable to make
1:07:12 the make the event so um keep an eye out for that we'll be announcing that soon all right
1:07:20 thank you all thank you so much have a great weekend stick around jeffrey and harry so we can
1:07:27 say hi

Description of the video:

0:00 to the cloud and we are let's do that yeah we're recording okay
0:06 great as soon as you start the recording i'll go ahead and uh introduce constantine
0:12 we're recording the ones in the waiting room pardon me we're recording okay
0:20 well great it's it's uh thank you all for taking time out of your friday afternoon to
0:25 join us for this talk my name is franklin hess i'm the director of the institute for european studies
0:31 and i'm co-sport sponsoring this uh this uh event with uh aurelion krayoutsu
0:37 of the tocqueville center um so uh we're very happy to
0:43 be hosting today constantin vasiliu who will be talking on montesquiou
0:50 the title of his talk is montesquieu's moderation a liberal art to the commercial world for the
0:56 commercial world um constantine has his phd from the university of toronto
1:04 and is currently at a postdoc at the kinder institute at the university of
1:09 missouri um he as you know is uh you can tell from his name is of some
1:16 greek ancestry so uh it's my my great pleasure always as uh also the director of the modern greek program to
1:22 be able to to uh um give an opportunity to uh
1:27 to a young greek scholar greek american greek canadian scholar uh to uh to to talk um so
1:34 with with that i'll uh give the floor over to constantine who will be sharing a powerpoint with you
1:41 great sorry i'm just
1:49 i don't see my my powerpoint presentation here
1:55 hold on one moment that's all right
2:09 so do you mind just hold on one moment i thought i had it
2:20 are you able to see it not yet
2:28 [Music] you have screen sharing permissions
2:34 right constantly you still see that what i mean you still have permission to share screen and zoom right that one's still
2:39 there for you i do i do um [Music] i guess i'm just going to try it i'm
2:45 just going to try it again hold on one moment
2:54 nice i don't know why i don't see it
3:08 oh there it is all right we got it you got it okay my apologies for that
3:16 um okay so before i begin
3:23 i'd like to thank doctors cryo2 and dr hess for granting me this wonderful opportunity to boast to my mother
3:31 that i'll be taking part in a lecture series which once included greece's former finance minister
3:37 yanez farofakis one of her personal heroes
3:42 so my book recaptures a conceptual space in the famous 18th century commerce and
3:49 virtue debates and i present montesquieu as a pivotal figure in these debates
3:54 whose theoretical assessments of commercial society loomed large in the political thought of david hume
4:00 adam smith and adam ferguson i argued that even though montesquieu was a booster of
4:06 commerce he was attuned to its dangers that made it a source of inmoderation and political despotism if left untamed
4:15 the book's central claim is that montesquieu thought sought to establish a new moderating principle in the 18th
4:20 century to replace the republican virtue of the ancients that was too burdensome for a modern world of small
4:28 souls and throughout the book i unearth an overlooked facet
4:34 of montesquieu's theory of moderation which channels human beings natural desire for honor within the
4:41 modern commercial world now some of you may have found it
4:46 understandably bizarre when i stated at the end of my introduction that francis fukuyama's
4:52 attempts to moderate liberal capitalism mirror the compromises montesquieu and his contemporaries made
4:59 during capitalism's early stages now my book does take a part of
5:05 fukuyama's thesis for granted that honor is an assertion of our freedom
5:11 but i think his book airingly blames some of the founders of modern liberalism
5:16 namely adam ferguson montesquiou and david hume for suppressing honor in their liberal
5:22 projects he then provides an 18th century end of history thesis
5:29 praising the u.s founders who finally had the wherewithal to realize that our thematic drive
5:34 is something human beings share that needed to be channeled and moderated
5:40 now i think the real problem with this account is that it overlooks how the thinkers who were most closely associated with the
5:46 founding montesquieu hume smith ferguson were actually quite preoccupied with the problem of honor
5:54 which is why one of my books important contributions is that it considers how foundational
6:00 liberal thinkers whose legacies are most intimately associated with anglo-american democracy
6:06 channeled honor in their political projects emphasizing features of their moderation
6:13 that were eclipsed by the historical circumstances of the us founding
6:20 so i'd like to begin by looking at montesquieu's touchstone definition of political moderation which i describe
6:28 as as modest some embonum in the spirit of the laws
6:34 he writes to form a moderate government it is necessary to combine the several powers to regulate tempered
6:41 set them in motion to give as it were blast to one in order to enable it to counterpoise the other
6:49 on the contrary a despotic government offers itself as it were at first sight
6:56 it is uniform throughout and as passions only are requisite to establish it
7:02 this is what every capacity may reach
7:07 so a key takeaway here is that political moderation is a theory of constitutional balance
7:13 which allows for multiple constitutional possibilities democracies aristocracies or monarchies
7:21 as we learn when montesquieu details the various forms of moderate government in his early books of the spirit of the
7:28 laws we also learn that free moderate government demands the population's emotional investment into their
7:34 political community without the passion of virtue and a republic or honor and a monarchy
7:41 government collapses into its default form despotism which by its nature is immoderates as we
7:48 learn from its definition now the other term i need to define is
7:54 commerce which had a much broader meaning than it does today in the 18th century
8:00 in the in cinco pd for instance you will find that it's defined as a communication among different peoples
8:06 a material exchange of goods and it connotes specific commercial activities related
8:12 to agriculture manufacturing arts finance and navigation
8:18 and montesquiou rarely treats the different understandings of commerce separately because commerce at the time was
8:24 understood as both an economic and a cultural phenomenon
8:30 and the term was also highly gendered it was a literary device used to draw
8:37 attention to the positive and negative features of commercial society
8:43 le du comers for example was a french term used to describe the softer more
8:48 feminine virtues that our commercial exchange relations habituated us to develop
8:56 the virtues that contributed to a more humane and peaceful world this is this is montesquieu not not me
9:03 that he explains in book 20.1 but thinkers used gender
9:10 misogynistically as well to emphasize the shadow side of commerce
9:17 they evoke machiavelli who in the prince infamously likens fortune to a woman like fortune
9:24 they held that commerce could be unpredictable impetuous and disruptive to the modern order
9:31 and nowhere was this feature of commerce more prevalent than in the world of finance and the
9:37 burgeoning paper money economy these new modes of economic activity
9:43 threatened to reverse the gains of commercial modernity
9:48 and this is why montesquieu referred to a figure by the name of john law as the greatest
9:54 promoter of despotism i.e a moderate government that europe has ever seen
10:01 now on its face this is a peculiar but important line because despotism or a moderate
10:08 government was montesquieu's summer malam right his greatest fear as again we saw
10:13 earlier in that definition now to give you a bit of background law
10:19 was a scottish financier mathematical genius gambling addict
10:25 with dashing good looks who often ran a foul with high society in britain i mean you could do something about the
10:31 wake but but he had to flee britain for philandering with london's
10:36 most beautiful debutantes so naturally he gravitated to paris and
10:42 served as the controller general of french finances shortly following the war spanish succession to help resolve france's war
10:49 debt crisis so he established a short-lived central
10:54 bank in paris between 1716 and 1720 that aim to fully replace specie currency
11:01 with paper money as a means to stimulate the economy and this enabled him to introduce
11:08 this debt to equity conversion scheme which eventually caused a stock price
11:13 bubble infamously known as the mississippi bubble that eventually burst and temporarily
11:18 destabilize the french economy now having been in the industry myself
11:26 i have my own antipathies towards the shady bond villain banker
11:31 right but of the wide range of infamous european despots who montesquieu sites throughout his
11:37 works there are a lot of bad guys he could have selected as avatars for despotism
11:43 but interestingly it was john law who threatened to produce a despotism of the most dangerous sort because
11:51 unlike traditional threats which came from absolute princely rule or clerical power
11:56 the form of despotism that concerned montesquieu most came from a fusion of financial and political power
12:03 that created new wealth streams for state sovereigns to fight constant wars
12:09 a law's economic system had two other interrelated consequences that kept montesquieu up at night
12:16 it disrupted the principal source of revenue for france's titled aristocrats
12:21 which concerned montesquieu because at the time the title nobles played an important intermediary role
12:28 in checking the crown's power secondly law's financial scheme fed into
12:34 an emerging commercial culture at the time where people increasingly perceive money and personal wealth
12:39 rather than public spiritedness as the greatest arbiter of social standing and recognition in social life
12:48 and these concerns preoccupied montesquieu throughout his entire writings dating back to his tale of the
12:54 troglodytes a famous allegory from the persian letters which details the tragic fates
13:00 of two alternative political communities
13:05 in the first the troglodytes based their community on self-interest alone
13:11 here you had inequality famine corruption and dishonesty in their day-to-day
13:17 commerce however when a disease outbreak reached the troglodytes
13:23 they went to seek help from a renowned doctor whom they previously swindled the last time a plague had infected them
13:31 but the doctor refused to help this time recalling their commercial dishonesty
13:36 and then most the tragodites they just died off they died
13:42 so the main lesson here is that self-interest alone does not translate
13:48 into a self-sustaining community but then the remaining troglodytes
13:53 formed a republic its institutions best afforded a life according to justice morality and
13:59 benevolence and these were the halcyon days of the troglodytes
14:04 citizens committed themselves to the common wheel and they had a sense of propriety and honesty in their commerce
14:11 one might say commerce and virtue were in harmony and their neighbors didn't mess with them since they had a martial spirit
14:18 always coming to each other's defense against outside aggressors
14:23 yet we learned that as the population increased and the commerce expanded citizens increasingly preferred a life
14:29 of ease and pleasure over virtue and their freedom became too burdensome
14:36 which is why the trogodites appointed a king to relieve themselves of any burdens associated with affairs of state
14:43 and the tale ends with their new king lamenting how in giving up their freedom the trogodites gave up their true
14:48 happiness in exchange for peace security and material wealth
14:54 and the ending is ambiguous we learned that the principles of commerce and virtue
14:59 are indeed compatible and may in fact reinforce one another as we see in troglodyte community 2.0
15:08 but it's not clear if montesquieu is nostalgically calling for a return to the republican politics
15:14 of the past or whether he's lamenting that commercial societies have no choice
15:20 but to settle for monarchy however the sequel to the tale provides
15:27 scholars with meaningful clues for resolving this ambiguity
15:32 it ends with the new established kings creed kerr
15:37 warning his troglodyte subjects that as you seek to distinguish yourself
15:42 solely by wealth which is nothing in itself i will certainly have to distinguish myself by
15:49 the same means and not remain in a state of poverty that you disdain
15:55 so the takeaway here is that as you're all probably meditating on the image of
16:00 donald trump is that unchecked commerce atrophies citizens moral sensibilities
16:08 montesquieu warns that in a luxury obsessed society as individuals learn to distinguish
16:13 themselves by wealth they yield the government whose office holders increasingly reflect their
16:18 diminished selves as commerce expands the only recognition of true worth
16:24 stems from material wealth but commerce is not the original sin for
16:29 montesquieu he argues that a society loses its moral hierarchy when the commercial ethos reaches
16:36 ubiquity citizens will evaluate character by the barometer of wealth
16:42 when no other barometer for judgment exists
16:48 so the implicit challenge montesquieu lays out for himself and to his readers is how do modern
16:54 commercial nations foster a sociable other regarding spirit among an
16:59 increasingly inward looking citizenry that is willing to exchange its liberty
17:04 for personal ease and comfort in other words how do you forge civic
17:09 cohesion in an age of modern commerce again it's a question montesquiou
17:16 grappled with throughout his writings and one that preoccupied his scottish counterparts
17:22 who each accepted the allegory's premise however for hume david hume and adam
17:29 smith commercial society itself contained the sources for overcoming the wealth and
17:34 virtue problem during his travels in france hume
17:41 observed how the parisian salon such as the one i'm in right now
17:46 was a symbol of modern commercial sociability which cultivated an ethos of politeness
17:53 and civility counteracting factionalism which in his view posed the greatest threat to the
17:59 modern order and hume was even more reactionary than montesquieu towards financial
18:06 speculation because it opened new avenues for enjoying luxuries
18:11 without ever having to really work and echoing him adam smith warned
18:20 that these monopolistic paper money schemes threatened to disrupt britain's natural
18:26 meritocracy undermining the honorable gentry class whose resilience
18:31 and firmness of character inspired the public mind smith held that financial speculation
18:38 provided people the hope in becoming rich quickly disincentivizing them from cultivating the commercial virtues that form the
18:44 bedrock of free moderate government prudence honesty benevolence credit worthiness
18:52 but this is where i differentiate montesquieu from human smith because the former doubted that
18:58 commercial moderation could funnel into the public sphere
19:03 in the commercial world merchants develop honesty and moderation as practical means for staying ahead
19:10 in other words they are utilitarian virtues that accommodate our self-interests
19:18 but these commercial virtues have their limits in the political realm of common ground that by its nature
19:25 conditions human beings to think and act along mannequin lines
19:32 and this is what i mean i'd like to direct you to one of my favorite passages in the spirit of the laws
19:38 which deepens our understanding of montesquieu's theory of constitutional balance
19:47 he writes that by a misfortune attached to the human condition great
19:53 men who are moderate are rare and as it always as it is always easier
19:58 to follow one's strength than to check it perhaps in the class of superior people
20:04 it is easier to find extremely virtuous people than extremely wise men
20:10 the soul takes such delight in dominating other souls even those who love the good love
20:16 themselves so much that no one is so fortunate as to distrust his good intentions
20:23 and in truth our actions depend on so many things that it is a thousand times easier to do
20:29 good than to do it well
20:35 now montesquieu's distinction between the virtuous and the wise prudent man
20:40 is especially important here because if one thinks one is serving the good in the cosmic sense why would one want
20:48 to ever exercise moderation or compromise now this is not a
20:54 completely novel insight readers of thomas hobbes will know that hobbes suppresses the good in political
20:59 life because it leads to divisiveness and war and montesquieu similarly realizes that
21:06 even one's vision of the good even if it's legitimate it becomes dangerous given the number of visions and
21:13 political multiplicities that exist in a large pluralistic society
21:19 but montesquieu's the difference though is montesquieu's division of powers aims to moderate rather than eliminate
21:26 virtue or any robust notions of the good in politics
21:31 in other words he regulates principled ambition within a civic space to constrain man's
21:37 propensity to dominate others he thought that honor or what he calls
21:43 our primordial desire for preferences and distinctions was a more reliable passion that could
21:49 be channeled to tame the excesses of commerce and he describes honor as
21:55 the prejudice of each person that can inspire the finest actions
22:02 so prejudices are the preconceived ideas of what others recognize as praiseworthy
22:08 in our words our deeds in our actions and it may have no rhyme or reason
22:14 because the rules of honor are circumstantial which is why honor cultures will
22:20 manifest themselves differently between different nations and within nations themselves
22:27 i'll give you an example to help clarify what i mean by prejudices
22:33 now despite my spartan roots my spartan genes i'm a pretty small
22:39 person and if this was ancient sparta i would have been thrown down that famous gorge
22:44 immediately after i was born right and so very early in life i developed a
22:49 good instinct to avoid fighting with anyone at all costs
22:54 and if someone slights me i prefer to dunk on them with words maybe behind a keyboard but as a
23:01 canadian i love playing hockey which as some of you might know
23:06 has a place for fighting if someone took a dangerous cheap shot at me
23:12 or my teammates it would be considered dishonorable if i chose not to fight them and i've
23:19 actually suffered a couple of concussions from getting into hockey fights which might explain why
23:25 some of the more confusing parts of today's talk but in all in all seriousness though
23:32 from an outsider's perspective fighting in hockey seems senseless
23:38 but in hockey and in other sports there are certain codes that people follow and in a weird way these unwritten codes
23:45 sometimes contribute to the policing of the sport
23:51 so honor then is a deeply contextual term and different cultures have their own rules and logics
23:58 that decide what is honorable and montesquieu thought that large
24:03 societies contain the plurality of different honors honors in commercial life in the military and politics and the sports we
24:09 play and how we conduct ourselves at the salon or the honor codes of a university
24:16 these were higher and lower honors some more toxic as we've seen than others which needed to be tamed or
24:23 done away with as montesquieu writes an evocular note
24:28 to his son the political world is maintained by that restless inner desire possessed by everyone to leave the
24:34 situation in which he is placed it's up to morality which would work on man's heart to regulate his sentiments
24:40 not to destroy them in other words a desire for recognition is a component of
24:46 the human totality that requires proper nourishment it is a sentiment useful to society when
24:51 it is well regulated montesquieu himself takes on this task in the spirit of the laws
24:57 he presents his readers a pluralistic theory of honor that includes quotidian and loftier forms
25:03 aiming to enliven human beings naturally sociable affections
25:09 this is why he tolerated france's system of finality a feudal remnant where rich people were
25:15 allowed to purchase prestigious aristocratic public offices and join the ranks of the nobility
25:22 in buying these offices they freed themselves from the world of commerce a world that provided inferior honors to
25:28 the higher honors associated with serving the public montesquieu thought that france's venal
25:34 institutions could potentially foster that hierarchy of value in the public mind
25:39 that favors civic honors over the lower distinctions without discouraging commercial activity
25:48 so in the history of political thought we'll find a number of canonical figures who deeply admired montesquieu
25:53 and shared his commitment to protecting the integrity of the public sphere rousseau john adams tocqueville hannah
26:00 arendt more recently each provide revised montesquiou to make political honors available to a broader
26:06 range of citizens which is why you might ask yourselves why should we turn to a thinker who is a
26:12 defender of aristocratic privilege and whose own theory reinforces the ill inequalities elites themselves
26:18 perpetuate why not look at some of montesquieu's errors whose theories of politics
26:24 adapted to an increasingly democratized world well my book argues that montesquieu's
26:31 moderation aims to integrate elites within the body politic to unearth a genuine sense of social
26:36 responsibility in writing during europe's transition from a feudal order to a more liberal
26:42 commercial world montesquiou observed a new aristocracy was forming and was continually looking for ways to
26:49 cultivate a deep sense of the good in them considering the transition our current
26:54 liberal order is undergoing this important facet of montesquieu's political thoughts
27:00 offers a useful conceptual framework for engaging with our own emerging elites whose innovative projects and visions
27:06 risk carving out sources of despotism inconceivable prior to the 21st century
27:13 moreover i think the right way to read montesquieu is dialectically this is why in the preface to the spirit
27:19 of the laws he describes his work as an exhortation to contemporary and future readers
27:25 to reflect on how their own honor yielding institutions may be harnessed to produce an esprit de
27:32 corps within their nations so the lesson from montesquieu is not to return to the aristocratic past
27:39 but to reflect on how his moderation may be adapted to our own circumstances now i thought about this a lot as a
27:45 canadian citizen how as canadians we could channel our institutions to enlarge a civic mind
27:51 and i also have brief early in kuwait intimations of how that might look in greece and in
27:56 the united states which i'll leave for possible discussion but in his own time and now i'm reaching
28:04 my conclusion montesquieu thought that the nobility of the robe and france's venal institutions were not
28:11 ends in themselves but non-commercial honor yielding sources at his disposal
28:17 which could be harnessed to incite the public spiritedness now hume and smith categorically
28:24 rejected the idea of a title nobility they had faith in a socially responsible
28:29 gentry class whose virtues would inspire the public mind under well-ordered conditions of
28:35 commerce this is what differentiates montesquieu the latter of whom was preoccupied with
28:41 these non-commercial sources i'm a bit sympathetic to montesquieu's perspective
28:47 i think most will agree the commercial meritocracy has a tendency to foster a win or take
28:52 all mentality i rose to power and i don't owe anyone anything because i arrived at it in my
28:58 own merits and we can sometimes observe this ethos in our elites today
29:03 be it people in big tech influential journalists financiers or even academics this is why i
29:10 sometimes appreciate the ongoing use of honorifics in the academy where we continuously earn title
29:16 distinctions for the contributions we make in our respective fields titles that might serve as a gentle
29:22 reminder the responsibility we have towards peers and perhaps future bright colleagues
29:30 now we have seen that human smith embraced commercial self-interest as the primary mover
29:36 believing that existing exchange relations alone could nourish human beings sociable impulses
29:42 nearly a century later tocqueville accepted their premise and channeled commercial sociability to
29:47 their egalitarian institutions of civic learning such as town halls and churches
29:53 which he understood as microcosms of the nation as a whole but if we consider how current date
29:59 technology is interfering with even our most primordial social bonds think about
30:04 automation and how the days of george bailey capitalism are long gone or how social media and dating apps like
30:11 tinder are paradoxically fueling a culture of atomization and loneliness
30:16 it is questionable whether such intermediary institutions or their modern day equivalents of on
30:22 their own can help enlarge a civic mind as tocqueville had once envisioned so i
30:27 would argue that montesquieu's theory of moderation offers an alternative basis for inciting the public spirits and
30:34 maintaining the integrity of our civic institutions which i think merits more attention
30:39 thank you very much thank you uh constantine um
30:45 i'm delighted to see uh kindred spirit uh interested in concept
30:52 of moderation i'm gonna make just uh some introductory comments
30:58 and then we will take over uh based on the hands that will be raised in the
31:05 um in the zoom box so uh i i'd ask you to uh identify yourself and
31:11 uh raise your hand and i will give you the the floor um two things that stem to mind from your
31:18 presentation the first is the difficulty of uh talking about montesquieu's
31:23 political moderation and um the fact that you focused on the concept of
31:28 commerce here is uh i think uh extremely important
31:33 this is an angle um that is difficult to follow in montesquieu's work
31:39 precisely because he is talking about political moderation and we are talking about
31:45 the importance of commerce so the first thing that i'd like to invite you to think about and explain to our colleagues here is um
31:53 what what is the real meaning of the term commerce in 18th century parliaments here
31:59 the term certainly uh is defined in larger you know in a larger framework um
32:06 and it is in this regard that perhaps a comparison between the scottish and the french enlightenment is warranted here
32:12 so what do the scots and the french understood by the term commerce um and uh how is that still relevant to
32:19 our considerations today so that's the first question that i proposed for our conversation
32:25 here when we talk about commerce it's not just trade it's
32:31 more than that and i think that it would be helpful session before we move forward the second thing that strikes me as
32:38 extremely extremely relevant in in and
32:43 timely uh in uh in your talk is has to do with a passage that montesquieu uh writes in
32:50 book 20 chapter one and i quote from i quote from montesquiou
32:56 commerce cures destructive prejudices and it is almost general rule that everywhere
33:03 there are gentle morris there is commerce and that everywhere there is commerce
33:08 there are gentlemans and i think this is an interesting
33:14 passage that in a way invites us to ask what is the relevance of
33:20 of these views on commerce for us today it is precisely uh important because motesko is known
33:27 for having introduced the so-called theories of the do commerce the gentle commerce and this is
33:33 described in the book 21 chapter 20 of the spirit of the laws and allow me to quote
33:39 that happily men are in a situation that such that through though their passions
33:46 inspiring them the thought of being wicked they nevertheless have an interest in
33:52 not being so so the idea here is that there is this gentle
33:57 invisible hand of commerce that turns uh let's say uh passions and interests weaker than
34:04 you know passions and dubious interests into uh socially uh good interests and passions so i
34:11 wanted to ask whether whether this view is um has been um kind of delegitimized by the course
34:18 of history and what we see today is precisely what you suggested in your
34:24 second part of the of the paper that it's not enough to rely on invisible hand of commerce
34:30 as it were montesquieu himself focused on the importance of honor that you so so well uh pointed out in
34:37 your presentation but there may be other mechanisms for us today that would be useful to draw upon that we create this
34:45 idea of a decent and humane society which was at the core of montesquieu's political moderation i
34:51 don't want to monopolize the conversation beyond that but i'd like to invite you to think
34:57 about these topics and as you start answering i would take over and you know allow others to to
35:05 speak about so please make sure to raise your hand and we'll allow you to ask the questions and then
35:13 feel free to answer any aspects of the questions that are being asked thank you sure thank you elliot so i'll begin then
35:19 by answering uh responding to a few of your comments uh while you're taking questions okay um
35:24 so in terms of the real meaning of commerce that's that's a good question because even
35:30 like i mentioned at the beginning of my presentation it had a much broader meaning in the 18th century um
35:37 it could be related to trade but it was also described as a cultural phenomenon which
35:43 you touched on a little bit your yourself that the le du commerce um it was uh so it was it was
35:52 the assumption right that that montesquieu and his scottish counterparts had was
35:57 that commerce brought people together and through our exchange relations right it fostered
36:05 this openness this exchange of manners right and
36:11 it's softened that's what they meant that it softened our moire so they were they were optimistic that uh
36:18 commerce would bring out the more humane uh side of our natures um now
36:25 it's very relevant today because um [Music] congress is not really practiced like
36:30 that anymore right a lot of our trade is automated a lot of our commerce is automated so that those face-to-face
36:36 interactions of being in some sort of arena together um that that softens us um that that's
36:43 minimizing there's you know we and and and that minimization has been accelerated these last seven eight
36:49 months as you know with amazon and how all these brick and mortar shops have been like shutting down right so one way that
36:56 they're relevant is to reflect more on what what is lost what has been
37:01 lost um from in the last two 300 years
37:07 from these that that these early promoters of capitalism admired about capitalism right um
37:13 [Music] now commerce now with respect to montesquieu he
37:20 thought about he thought about commerce very relativistically right he didn't have
37:26 one idea one theory of how economy should be ordered right and that's because unlike today
37:32 and how we think about economics and politics as two separate disciplines uh in the 18th century um
37:40 these two questions were inseparable and montesquieu being the pluralist that he is thought that well monarchies
37:48 needed to have a form of commercial activity that accommodated that form of constitution
37:55 right which is why he was especially against uh financial speculation in france's
38:01 economy in in france because it created too many avenues for corruption whereas england which he described as a
38:08 quasi republic um would would interrupt would have
38:13 would have a different form of commerce that accommodated it right so he was a in that sense he was a he was
38:18 pluralistic with um with how he with what sort
38:24 of commercial activity each nation would have it would always have to to accommodate the constitution in
38:29 question and and this leads me to your to your principal question which yeah um dr kai youtube uh about how
38:36 moderation is a very uh complicated concept in the spirit of the laws
38:41 and um and typically uh commerce uh especially this idea of
38:47 commerce the du commerce um montesquieu and his counterparts
38:53 thought it provided some sort of cultural support to the laws right that it's in softening
38:59 and softening it it's it's um it supported free moderate government so
39:06 a lot of the commentaries sees interprets commerce and monster spirit of laws as a source of moderation
39:12 right but what i'm trying to bring out is that montesquiou actually feared that commerce it was a double-edged sword it could
39:18 actually be a source of in moderation if it's not counterpoised right if we go
39:24 back to that initial definition right and that's what i try to tease out in in my
39:29 uh that's why i try to tease out in my presentation today and and why montesquieu pointed to our honor
39:34 yielding institutions to find a way to moderate commerce yeah
39:40 that's yeah that's that's excellent uh dan uh dan carl has a question in the chat then would
39:45 you like to ask and maybe elaborate on it yes
39:54 then asked what did mark disco mean by the word moderation but i would like
40:01 to invite him to to add a few words if um if you can hear us please go ahead uh so
40:10 uh as as you both have uh acknowledged montesquieu's conception of moderation
40:16 is is quite tricky and and intricate so uh does he actually does he actually
40:24 have different conceptions of moderation when he's talking about
40:29 different topics right is there moderation for uh lawyers and then
40:37 different moderation for people who are engaged in market activity moderation
40:44 in religious conformity and so forth yeah i think that's that's an excellent
40:49 question maybe the short the short answer to that question is is yes right and
40:55 um i mean i i provided the encompassing definition early in my
41:02 presentation right that it's a theory montessori's moderation is a theory of constitutional balance
41:08 right and but he it's a in the spirit of the laws it is a very
41:14 slippery term sometimes it's used moderation is used as a descriptor
41:19 right moderate government or moderation is if it's one of the
41:26 passions as opposed to honor or virtue that supports free moderate government
41:32 but what he means by moderation there is sort of like a moderated virtue that only applies to the aristocrats who have
41:40 powers in an aristocracy so he uses it that way um we you know you mentioned religion um
41:47 christianity is a source of moderation in the spirit of the laws uh i make the case that honor
41:52 institutions are a source of moderation and like i mentioned in my talk these um
41:58 they have with every sphere of human activity right from religion to the law as
42:06 de tocqueville will observe in america a century later moderation has its own logics right and
42:13 there's an honor right there's prejudice there's a there's prejudices that develop in these
42:18 spheres of human activity right that um
42:23 that that that montesquieu's theory tries to counter balance so so what i'm
42:29 trying so what i what i'm trying to add with my research
42:35 is that and i think aurelian agrees with me here is that we can't just understand
42:43 political moderation as just institutional checks and balances this sort of newtonian because monster
42:48 is very much influenced by but newton right this newtonian balancing that kind of keeps everything steady
42:54 right free moderate government needed its cultural supports that's the best way i can
43:00 describe it and those cultural supports came from uh from commerce that that montesquieu
43:07 would have agreed with his uh scottish counterparts right but for montesquiou wasn't enough
43:13 you needed a more robust sense of
43:19 other sources right non-commercial sources of this public spiritedness and you know i don't want to sound like
43:25 too much of a cheerleader of montesquieu right because i think one of the the the blind spots in this theory is
43:32 that he isolates uh virtue and honor as the two passions
43:38 right so i think what he may be exhorting us uh to do is to think about passions that
43:46 may support free moderate government that doesn't necessarily correspond with
43:51 his strict definitions of honor right i think the takeaway though is that we have base or passions
43:58 right like that impulse to dominate others right that despotic passion but we have the benevolent emotions
44:05 right that could be channeled right and and and i think to go back to aurelian's
44:10 broader question i i think that's a real uh blind spot in in liberal theory that it does not
44:17 uh consider the emotional uh basis of politics that you know to make
44:23 it very relevant i think that's something that uh unfortunately my cards are on out on the table that donald trump tapped into
44:30 four years ago right appealing to that part so thank you yeah um
44:38 thank you um frank uh do you have a question yes i do thank you constantine for your
44:46 very very interesting and timely talk it was it was uh very interesting uh what i'm wondering about is if you have
44:53 considered the global context within which uh uh montesquiou uh was functioning and
44:59 which were functioning today um because i think there are some interesting parallels we often think of globalization as a
45:07 contemporary phenomenon and the truth of the matter is though that globalization has been part of modernity
45:14 since its inception and there's an argument to be made that um montesquieu is is responding
45:22 to an economy that's foundation is shifting in uh in
45:28 in 18th century france um and that is you know becoming increasingly uh
45:34 an an empire uh with uh the louisiana territory um and that in many ways we're in a similar
45:40 situation where where our the ability of our democratic system has kind of
45:46 out been outstripped um by by globalized alliances of uh elite
45:53 capitalists and i'm wondering i'm wondering if there is a space for fitting these reflections on
45:59 globalization uh into your into your uh theories yeah well look there i mean ishvan hunt
46:07 is the is an authority on on this specific question right like i'm very thankful to
46:12 his work because he um also looking at this
46:18 at commerce more broadly he he describes 18th century commerce as a globalization
46:24 phenomenon that's not just economic but but cultural as well right because on the one hand you're
46:30 right um a a trope that emerged in the 17th and 18th century
46:35 is that unlike ancient times today commerce is power right if you want
46:41 power if you want to compete with england which is why montesquieu had such admiration for england
46:47 right you need to model yourself as a commercial empire right empires of commerce and um
46:54 so so you know there and there is this impulse throughout montesquieu's spirit of the laws to adapt to the
47:00 uh to to adapt to this to this new uh paradigm and uh but but i think
47:07 montesquieu had a and his uh contemporary his closest readers had this uh
47:13 naivety about it because he thought that you know extreme trades
47:18 within the americas and outside of europe would would have this to use his words civilizing
47:24 pacifying effects on citizens right and um and and uh
47:30 you know and and and hume uh he saw he also thought about commerce as
47:36 this globalization phenomenon he thought that uh
47:41 europe was becoming a modern-day greece right with you know with these city-states where there's this
47:46 cosmopolitan exchange of ideas and mores and and and they both thought that was very important
47:53 because it's uh it goes back to what i was talking about the prejudices
47:58 right to go if you that quote that's um about duke omerus that o'reilly incited
48:05 before is that commerce this gentle commerce destroy it it cures us of our destructive
48:11 prejudices right think about the my hockey fighting honor culture right if we mix with other
48:19 cultures right it it creates this cosmopolitan openness to other ideas
48:24 that we're more open to adapting so they thought that commercial exchange relations would allow us to overcome our prejudices
48:31 now um so they were very optimistic about commerce but montesquieu again thought that he wasn't as
48:38 optimistic as the scottish counterparts because he thought that commercial activity itself because of
48:43 that self-interested side contained it produced this inward
48:48 looking ethos that needed to be counter balanced right to keep us to to keep us other
48:54 regarding in a sense if that makes sense thank you um i'd like to invite kwang yu and then
49:02 hannibal uh to us both questions at the same time so you have a time to think about how to answer so
49:08 kwangyu and then hanibal and then constantine you have some time to to think about it
49:14 thank you hello can you hear me yeah yeah i can hear you okay thank you
49:19 i'm calling you i'm a phd student here with aurelia and uh
49:25 thank you for the topic it's very interesting to me uh i think you mentioned that the the idea
49:30 of political moderation is a very complex concept it has dimension of like
49:36 as a constitutional uh principle it can can can be about a personal virtuous and
49:42 a emphasis is also about like social culture which i think is also close closely uh entangled with
49:49 institutional arrangement so i'm very interested in the your first chapter because this shows
49:55 that which i didn't know about this shows that like montesquieu's theoretical formulation i
50:01 think was like closely uh responding to the like political problems in his context
50:09 right he's not doing like pure pure theoretical formulation he's he's responding to the
50:15 problems of his time which is about the the centralized centralizing power of the
50:20 monarch especially the in the financial powers so you you mentioned one sentence in
50:26 your your introduction paper like he he amount of skill like in responding to this uh problem of
50:34 financial centralization he thinks that um it's important to maintain a civically
50:40 civically minded nobility to contact centralized so my question is uh clarifying because
50:45 you could could you explain more about how what's his what are his like more specific civic
50:50 uh suggestions suggestions about this counter acting strategies right yeah
50:57 okay good yeah okay keep that in mind constantine write down and hannibal so then you'll
51:03 have a chance to answer and then we'll move on to the another set of questions after you respond hannibal yes thank you
51:10 i enjoyed the presentation very much when i think about moderation of the passions i often think about plato
51:15 and i see a point of connection and a point of divergence between montesquieu and plato in the sense that for plato the sophists
51:21 may found a despotism using the passions whereas the the philosopher or the guardian founds a republic using reason
51:29 and the first part of your talk i heard montesso saying something similar but plato has these guardians abnegating
51:35 the passions in their daily life and living like monks whereas maybe montesquieu seems to think
51:40 in the second half of your talk that having investments and businesses is is good for the the psyche of the ruler um and
51:49 is that actually what he's saying um what's my question
51:54 thank you constantine why don't you try to address both questions yeah okay good i'll i'll i'll start with
52:01 the kwang yu's question uh about the uh the nobility right because yeah i
52:07 mentioned briefly that montesquiou what concerned montesquiou about
52:12 john law's economic system was that it would financially starve
52:18 france's title nobles where in france the nobility of the robe a lot of these
52:24 figures they they filled the uh the offices of the parliament right which were these judicial offices
52:31 and um but they also uh supported the crown
52:40 they the crown so when when um [Music] when uh during the war spanish
52:47 succession uh king louis issued a lot of government bonds
52:52 right that's uh that were supported they were called dead right that were offered by the title
52:59 nobility right and these nobles right these these bonds that was their principal source of
53:05 revenue right and that's that that money is what allowed them that revenue supported their
53:11 intermediary status now john law his financial system you know his story
53:17 like a lot of economic historians actually see it in a positive light because it had a leveling effect on
53:24 french society because it was a debt conversion scheme that forced people to trade in their bonds
53:31 right for stocks right that initially just went awry right so it started so that it got rid
53:38 of it financially starved the principal source of revenue by getting rid of these bonds the principal source of revenue of the
53:44 nobility right where in the french context that was the intermediary power right
53:50 that kept the crown in check right whereas in england he wasn't because
53:56 you know you had similar schemes going on in england at the same time but montesquieu wasn't as concerned because he saw because sovereignty in
54:04 england was more in it was more concentrated in the parliament power was more diffuse right where you
54:10 didn't have the one absolute the one absolute monarch at the top right with acts with uh who could be
54:17 corrupted right by this new form of power that could be wielded right because then so because because what
54:25 monster was afraid of is that it it created a new source of revenue right for the king to fight territorial
54:31 wards right to for to serve as imperial ambitions and as i was discussing before with uh
54:38 with with frank um montesquieu was forward-looking he's like no today it's empires of commerce
54:43 it's trade right whereas he saw how this form of finance can actually uh betray the principles so now you you
54:51 asked me your the second part of your question was how well how does it deal with this problem in his writings well in 17 from 17
54:58 16 i i believe it was that montesquiou wrote this short essay giving all these
55:04 recommendations to the crown on how to resolve its debt crisis saying that you know you could tax the
55:10 nobility here um you you could adjust tax farming lower the price of the don't the interest
55:16 rates and they don't right but you wanted to preserve this time because even though tax
55:21 was inefficient in france's tax firing system it also made it inefficient for the
55:27 crown to raise funds to fight these costly wars right so it almost imposed a check on
55:33 the crown right so that so that was his response um now uh i'm just going to shift over to
55:40 hannibal's question i i think i got the the the first part of his question so please correct me if i
55:45 if i misinterpreted part of it um now i don't i don't remember if i mentioned this in the introductory chapter that i
55:51 shared but i mentioned how montesquieu's moderation has ancient echoes right i
55:58 refer to it as a liberal art for the commercial world right um but you raise a good point
56:03 about plato's guardians and and which which goes to a a distinction between moderation
56:11 in the mod in the montesquieuien sense and the ancient notion of moderation which is that um
56:17 [Music] moderation is a rare it's it's it's a rare temperament
56:22 right with the ancients right you could rise you know above through the um
56:31 through education right in the broader sense philosophical education you could you could rise above the baser
56:37 passions right you need to the end is to liberate yourself right from the appetite of passions
56:43 right to be um you know to approximate the four virtues moderation being one of them right well montesquiou in in the modern
56:51 world uh thought that that moderate disposition even among the best of us even among the
56:57 most enlightened king like louis xiv which he mentions sarcastically
57:02 right but but john law is an example because he actually had respect for john law even among the most enlightened people
57:08 who desired the good right i don't have that capacity for moderation
57:16 right in the ancient sense you always fall short right it's the rarest of virtues
57:23 in terms of temperamentally so his project is to harness these modern institutions
57:30 right to encourage moderation right from institutions of honor to checks and
57:35 balances right and i think that is what differentiates him from the ancients now um but commerce itself plays a role
57:44 so you you recall me mentioned because i think if i understand the second part of your question well how does investments
57:49 how does commerce itself kind of feed into this sort of moderation that he tries to
57:55 to forge right well he um this idea of finality
58:01 is that in the world of commerce you um your ambition is channeled
58:08 towards buying these offices that afford you to leave that world right and um
58:16 and and titled nobles like were forbidden to uh he held the title nobody should be
58:22 forbidden to engage in in commerce right so there is it's almost this forced repression
58:27 right and he and and you may be pursuing these honors through self-interest through commercial self-interest
58:34 but i think there's a moralism a civic moralism at the heart of montesquieu's thought which is which which draws from this
58:41 ancient stoic idea is that once you kind of feel the good and are serving the good
58:46 that'll enlarge your civic impulses right any but this is not something that
58:53 could be achieved through philosophy right like you see in plato this had to be encouraged through his that's where
58:59 montessori's institutionalism comes into play sorry i'm talking a lot but these are very rich questions and i want to make sure i
59:05 answer you thank you we have time for a few more questions noah is next
59:12 and i have just one question on the roster so noah please uh go ahead
59:19 all right uh noah ibrishman i'm at uh bucknell university in political theory it was a really interesting talk really
59:25 really kind of promising project i was very fascinated by the chapter but i was struck
59:31 a little bit by uh the absence of a figure that i sort of thought would be in there um i
59:37 really like this pairing of montesquieu hume and smith and i've seen the chapter that you also deal with
59:43 harrington later on um but i'm wondering where a place where someone like cato so trenchard and
59:50 gordon fit into this in the sense that you know they're clearly kind of responding in this much more devoutly
59:55 sort of strongly republican tradition but you know they notably respond to the south sea bubble with calls that verge on
1:00:02 summary execution of the conspirators involved in the financial issues there and so i'm wondering um where that kind
1:00:08 of really extreme element of this realm of liberal republican thought might fit in
1:00:14 here yeah well you know cato actually makes an important cameo appearance in the
1:00:19 next chapter so you're you're uh correct that it's what what i found most striking
1:00:25 about montesquieu because montessori we all know he's he was an admirer of england right because again england
1:00:31 is the model for and um and he writes a lot about england there's two famous chapters in the
1:00:36 spirit of the laws his notes it's england as a constant trope throughout his writings but
1:00:42 i found it very bizarre that on the one hand john law is the greatest promoter of despotism and these financial
1:00:48 schemes concerned him right but on the other hand he's completely silent on the question of the south sea bubble
1:00:54 which took which was actually a result of lost schemes because after the mississippi bubble colossal like okay
1:01:00 let's just bring our money to invest here right and and and it went on throughout europe
1:01:06 and um so i i alluded to why montesquieu was silent on the south
1:01:12 sea bubble uh because which goes to the earlier premise in his thinking about commerce
1:01:18 which is that you don't he never thought about commerce in politics stewie generous independence of one another
1:01:24 these types of schemes he thought were more dangerous in france right because of how absolute power was
1:01:31 in one figure at the end whereas in england power was as he understood it was more diffuse so
1:01:37 if there was corruption in one or two public officers there others would sound the alarm and they would check one
1:01:43 another so he thought there was more room right and he also he also held that
1:01:48 um well actually i won't open the second part but i want to i want to address your question about cato directly what differentiates them
1:01:53 so cato as you mentioned responded they were they were alarmed by the corruption of
1:01:59 the south sea bubble and this is something actually that adam smith responds to and i think is um because cato and their
1:02:06 in their criticism of the south sea bubble they're actually um
1:02:12 concerned uh how these monopolistic ventures right discourage these commercial
1:02:19 virtues right that that smith as we know thought was was so important right because
1:02:25 because monopoly removes merit from the equation of commerce right which is very important um but if you recall from because in
1:02:32 cato's letters it's the first six letters and and this is where i'm getting to the real difference between montesquieu's
1:02:38 softer republicanism and cato's more machiavellian check on on finance where if you look at
1:02:44 the first uh six letters which is really where they're zeroing in on on the the south sea bubble it's hang
1:02:52 the stock jobbers hang the stock jobbers right it's it's and this is very machiavellian right this
1:02:58 this uh this fear of punishment right is very important to their republicanism
1:03:03 right to to to to to uh prevent right this type of corruption that's
1:03:10 inevitable in in in public life right whereas i think now montesquieu again he's
1:03:16 silent on this but my instincts and i know um i think aurelian would agree with me here because he talked about this last
1:03:21 week when we were in another uh discussion on montesquieu uh montesquieu was actually very moderate
1:03:27 to use a same term on on the idea of of punishment of punishment of crimes
1:03:33 right because he would i think he would respond that this harsh punishment would actually
1:03:38 inject the seeds of corruption it would fuel corruption right it would people would be
1:03:43 accustomed normalized to this fear right element which he associated with
1:03:49 with despotism right so he his republicans his republicanism seeks to encourage
1:03:55 virtuous virtuous behavior through the more benign passions right appealing in a
1:04:01 sense right that that honor right to serving civic offices and um and in france you know in his
1:04:08 response to finance he saw that in the nobility of the robe right who had who were protected
1:04:16 from the world of commerce that corruption but leaving that world of commerce right
1:04:22 they still had these internalized bourgeois sort of manners that made them most
1:04:28 appropriate for balancing commercial ends with the public interest
1:04:33 right so that i mean you're you're you're spot on i mean that's uh
1:04:38 cato's letters and how that informed hume smith their response to finance
1:04:45 vis-a-vis montesquieu i think that's a fascinating question especially considering montessori's obsession with england and his silence on
1:04:52 let's see thank you um i i don't see anyone um um i don't know
1:04:58 if noah wanted to respond to uh would you like to to say something in in addition to your question
1:05:04 um sure i i thought i mean i think it makes perfect sense i'm just
1:05:11 i suppose it's more of a kind of a methodological issue i guess is more of my my consideration and just wanted to hear you kind of
1:05:17 speak to cato a little bit simply because it does you know so my full disclosure my research is actually on extremism
1:05:24 so it's sort of the flip side of this sort of movement towards moderation and cato's letters is very much that's
1:05:30 the sort of the extreme republican reaction in many senses so it's um it's it no it's just it's very
1:05:37 fascinating i like this i like your approach quite a lot so yeah yeah this reminds me i i should read kate or letters i i have
1:05:45 to confess that there are a number of books that i haven't read and kato's letters have always been on my list and
1:05:50 they've never made it to the to the final list um i want to read a passage from uh book
1:05:57 20 chapter 6 of the spirit of the laws because in a way it's very relevant for us today
1:06:04 montesquieu writes this commerce talking about commerce
1:06:09 is a kind of lottery and each one is seduced by the hope of a lucky number
1:06:15 everyone loves to play and the most sober people willingly enter the play when it does
1:06:20 not have the appearance of gambling with all of all of its irregularities its violence is dissipation the loss of
1:06:27 time and even of life so i want to you know since our time will be up soon i want to ask
1:06:33 constantine to reflect on uh on our zeitgeist on the spirit of our time
1:06:39 we all love to play we seem to you know we all love to invest our money
1:06:44 in the stock stock bonds whatever this seems to have become the the the illness of our age the ma the
1:06:51 spiritual illness of our age uh it seems it seems to me that um it's not the safe foundation for a
1:06:59 free society what do you think of that yeah
1:07:04 i mean i i mean i have to i have to think i want to read the quote because it's it's
1:07:10 interesting that uh you know the uh yeah i mean that's that's uh
1:07:17 i think it goes back to my my brief discussion with um with frank right that
1:07:24 you know you know montesquieu was not an idealist right i think and now i'm just i'm just kind of
1:07:29 thinking on my feet because i haven't thought about this question before so i'll probably need to give it more thought but
1:07:35 um he he was not an idealist and and uh even in
1:07:42 you know any form of free moderate government he thought those seeds of corruption were there right and if you think about
1:07:48 my own project you know the sense of social responsibility it's like you're always gonna have like the volkswagen executives right
1:07:55 creating these algorithms fooling right but but but that and he i think he accepted that
1:08:01 right but but there's but if he he held that if there at least was a civic space
1:08:06 right that encourages non-commercial honors that would sort of be enough to keep everything on even
1:08:12 keel um but again now it goes it goes back to uh
1:08:17 i agree and it goes back to my conversation with frank right it makes us reflect like what kind of economy
1:08:22 uh my own concerns with automation and other things like what kind of economy have we created
1:08:28 right where it seems that that you know that commerce that sort of
1:08:35 encourages these virtues right that sobriety right where people enter with sobriety
1:08:41 has been replaced by this irrational exuberance right to decide a famous uh uh commentator on
1:08:48 on the markets right that seems to be quite ubiquitous in the way we enter into into commerce a lot of us so but it's
1:08:55 something i need to reflect on great quote yeah and as as frank pointed out in the chat room
1:09:01 you know you look at people investing in bitcoins in gold in whatever speculative schemes ponzi
1:09:07 schemes and there's the whole the whole one of the theories of uh why the stock market has stayed so
1:09:14 high is that uh with sports being shut down uh many gamblers made their way into the
1:09:20 market and started you know well two i want to say
1:09:25 gambling has really i mean i think a strong argument is to be made that gambling has debased our society in
1:09:31 in a way that that has uh brought forward the worst aspects of of uh capitalism as a citizen well you
1:09:38 know you you brought up two interesting points i want to comment on bitcoin because i see a very interesting parallel there
1:09:44 with with john law's system and the paper money schemes but but just with respect to gambling i like i
1:09:50 mentioned i'm a big hockey fan so in 2004-2005 there was a big hockey
1:09:56 strike and the season was cancelled and in canada so you know this is the
1:10:01 past time the national pastime gambling went up by like 300
1:10:07 everybody started playing poker right because they needed that you know that impulse right so uh
1:10:13 but but the more serious thing about about bitcoin that i i found like i had a good discussion with um i forget
1:10:19 this french scholar who's written a lot about the john law and his legacy but um
1:10:25 something i read in the chapter that montesquieu and his counterparts concerns was about the financialization
1:10:31 of government right now one of montesquieu's there's a chapter in in book 20 where he
1:10:38 talks about or book 21 where he talks about the invention of letters of exchange which was basically paper money in the
1:10:45 early uh just pre-modern early modern period invented by jews right who needed to find means right to
1:10:53 kind of mask their property so it wouldn't be seized right and this was uh good right this
1:11:01 this this paper money in that sense invented in the private sector actually was a good thing that that
1:11:08 that enriched nations right and and it restrains the sovereign the king
1:11:15 right from grabbing on to right from seizing property and being despotic
1:11:20 right um but with the financialization of money right with government getting a hold
1:11:27 right of this currency right of this way of this of this new means of of commercial activity
1:11:33 it became it became a vehicle of a tool a potential tool of oppression
1:11:38 that he saw with with john law right so you see it in the private sector you know there's a sort
1:11:44 of it contributes to liberty but being the moderate that montesquiou is it was not an unalloyed good there's like a shadow
1:11:50 side to all these things and and look i mean it's an interesting question i and again i'm not i don't
1:11:56 want to be a cheerleader for montesquiou because there's you know i like central banks especially in this
1:12:01 economy right like that and but with bitcoin right um where is there more corruption
1:12:08 i know there's a lot of corruption in the private sphere right now in the way that it's used um will the federal reserve our national
1:12:15 banks need to centralize get full control over
1:12:21 over bitcoin right the way it has over our currency and that that's an interesting question i which i'm just not an economist to
1:12:29 explore it but i think my research does enough to raise that question well let's you know because my because law wanted
1:12:35 to replace specie currency which basically means gold and silver with paper money
1:12:40 right which created more fluidity but had certain dangers right um
1:12:47 bitcoin has its own i think dangerous with ditch digital currencies right
1:12:52 that's so that's i thought about that before yeah thank you constantine our time is up so
1:12:58 uh i want to to take this opportunity since i i see kwangyu do you have a question uh
1:13:04 an additional question you want to ask um yeah maybe i want to uh like this is
1:13:10 not like a question maybe this is a note i want to add another comment i think you mentioned a
1:13:16 very important idea in this introduction like using the sense of honor to counter the counter
1:13:24 the overdose of modern self-interestedness or materialism
1:13:30 it's a very important uh strategy i think it's not only in montesquieu but
1:13:36 also in other smith and other other of his contemporaries and i know about this not
1:13:42 because i do i do study on this my best friend uh antonio who is a postdoc at brown uh
1:13:49 just finished his dissertation on on this idea like he studies uh the honor in in uh in other smith
1:13:56 rousseau and account and another scholar at brown uh sharon krause also wrote an important
1:14:01 book like bible liberalism with honor i think which also has a chapter on on monday and on
1:14:06 so my question or maybe you don't have to answer that like uh have you found or are you going to
1:14:13 explore like how distinctive uh uh montesquieu's
1:14:18 theory of honor is compared to his contemporaries so i think you are going to do that kind of that scene in chapter
1:14:25 four like like maybe you have some idea or if if you want to talk about or maybe you
1:14:31 you you will talk about it later in other circumstances but i think it's very interesting okay you have you
1:14:36 have two minutes to answer your question the question thank you sorry i know i well these are good questions
1:14:42 this is a central um this is something i look at very carefully in in my
1:14:48 in in my manuscripts um the short answer by my response to um
1:14:55 the way montesquieu treats uh honor my response to krause is that um honor i see it as a social uh
1:15:03 more of a social passion in in montesquieu but um that where with at krause she
1:15:10 sees it as purely as self-interested ambition which i think is there you have this mandibility and honor in
1:15:16 montesquiou but i get the sense as i read them that mo honor and virtue are not as separate
1:15:24 as he describes in his regime typologies i think he harnesses honor to enliven
1:15:30 right that other regardedness that i think he thought was was natural in in human beings um
1:15:38 i think the main difference between how how smith and and hume treat honor
1:15:45 versus montesquieu is that uh smith and hume thought commercial honor
1:15:50 was a higher source of honor right then and they rejected this idea of a titled
1:15:56 aristocracy thinking of their own context um where they didn't montesquieu
1:16:02 thought that honors uh political honors needed to be more protected from commerce than smith and
1:16:11 hume allow for that's why in my dissertation in my manuscript i also write about adam ferguson
1:16:16 who was a closer reader of montesquieu who held in the same way that
1:16:22 these honors political offices needed to be protected from commerce in a way that smith and hume didn't so i
1:16:28 explored that a lot in my uh in my manuscript
1:16:34 thank you that's another author to to read that i have not read adam ferguson so i
1:16:39 i guess and he has hope and uh you have to give me the names of
1:16:44 those scholars at brown so i should uh reach out to them because they seem we seem to have overlapping uh
1:16:50 i will i i will send you the name of anton i'm sorry i didn't invite anton to join
1:16:56 us but uh i hope uh yeah you did well there's so much we can do um i'd
1:17:02 like to thank all of you for taking time to be with us but uh the the greatest the things should go
1:17:08 to constantine a wonderful presentation a great frame framework there behind you the
1:17:15 uh the salon is is uh appropriate thing i like to thank everyone who joined us from outside uh uh and
1:17:22 uh travis noah and others and um i'd like to remind all of you that the
1:17:28 tokville series program um will continue next week we have a talk uh on um hamilton uh it's
1:17:36 our first in the series of called the idea of america uh which will be followed on november 6
1:17:43 by second talk on the statue of liberty special thanks to the institute of west european
1:17:48 studies frank and heather and jonathan for making this possible it's a pleasure to host young scholars
1:17:54 and we wish you all the best constantine you deserve a good job and and
1:18:01 a good publisher for your wonderful manuscripts so a good a good round of applause and
1:18:08 thank you thank you again pleasure hosting you stick around a
1:18:14 little bit afterwards constantine okay i'll stick around as well so thank you